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Getting hassled in the Jedi Temple


IoNonSoEVero

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So, going through the Jedi Temple on Ossus tonight doing dailies, I ran into several Republic characters who were actively trying to interfere with Imperial players doing their quests. Obviously they can't really steal kills or objectives since it's opposite faction, and since it was a PvE instance they couldn't attack Imperial players, but they were doing things like following them and spamming AoE attacks around the targets they were trying to kill, obviously trying to be annoying and distracting.

 

I ran into one of them who popped out of stealth and hassled me while I was trying to kill a quest objective. I ignored him and went on with my game, but saw him doing the same thing in other rooms later. In hindsight is something like this reportable?

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So, going through the Jedi Temple on Ossus tonight doing dailies, I ran into several Republic characters who were actively trying to interfere with Imperial players doing their quests. Obviously they can't really steal kills or objectives since it's opposite faction, and since it was a PvE instance they couldn't attack Imperial players, but they were doing things like following them and spamming AoE attacks around the targets they were trying to kill, obviously trying to be annoying and distracting.

 

I ran into one of them who popped out of stealth and hassled me while I was trying to kill a quest objective. I ignored him and went on with my game, but saw him doing the same thing in other rooms later. In hindsight is something like this reportable?

 

That stinks. Back in the day I experienced similar type incidents while playing WoW--some people took factions a little too seriously and forgot we were all playing a game (or, more likely, they were just jerks). Never had that happen here, though. If it's not reportable, it should be, as they are purposely interfering with someone else's game. Can't hurt to try reporting it.

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So, going through the Jedi Temple on Ossus tonight doing dailies, I ran into several Republic characters who were actively trying to interfere with Imperial players doing their quests. Obviously they can't really steal kills or objectives since it's opposite faction, and since it was a PvE instance they couldn't attack Imperial players, but they were doing things like following them and spamming AoE attacks around the targets they were trying to kill, obviously trying to be annoying and distracting.

 

I ran into one of them who popped out of stealth and hassled me while I was trying to kill a quest objective. I ignored him and went on with my game, but saw him doing the same thing in other rooms later. In hindsight is something like this reportable?

 

Maybe we have a different definition of "hassling", but I don't really see any hassling in this. Distracting and annoying, probably. Stupid, sure. But since there is no actual interfering with anyone's gameplay (as you wrote: a simple ignoring was a possible solution), I don't consider this hassling, thus reporting it seems unwarranted to me.

 

This is hassling to me: One player in the imp guild I have an alt in bragged in guild chat about healing an elite NPC on Ossus that a rep player was fighting against. He did it for so long that eventually the companion and then the player's char died. He got called out for it in the chat by fellow guildies for being a di... But even that I don't think would be a reportable action. However, it was direct interfering with someone's gameplay, thus I consider it hassling.

Edited by JattaGin
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Maybe we have a different definition of "hassling", but I don't really see any hassling in this. Distracting and annoying, probably. Stupid, sure. But since there is no actual interfering with anyone's gameplay (as you wrote: a simple ignoring was a possible solution), I don't consider this hassling, thus reporting it seems unwarranted to me.

 

This is hassling to me: One player in the imp guild I have an alt in bragged in guild chat about healing an elite NPC on Ossus that a rep player was fighting against. He did it for so long that eventually the companion and then the player's char died. He got called out for it in the chat by fellow guildies for being a di... But even that I don't think would be a reportable action. However, it was direct interfering with someone's gameplay, thus I consider it hassling.

 

The thing is, as far as I'm concerned, distracting someone *is* interfering directly in their gameplay and hassling them. I have a lot of trouble following different things happening onscreen (which is one of many reasons I don't group with others -I literally can't follow what I need to do). So for me, someone spamming AoEs, being distracting and obscuring the view of the target I need to kill is interfering. In this case I was able to ignore it and press on, but it was a pain in the butt.

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So, going through the Jedi Temple on Ossus tonight doing dailies, I ran into several Republic characters who were actively trying to interfere with Imperial players doing their quests. Obviously they can't really steal kills or objectives since it's opposite faction, and since it was a PvE instance they couldn't attack Imperial players, but they were doing things like following them and spamming AoE attacks around the targets they were trying to kill, obviously trying to be annoying and distracting.

 

I ran into one of them who popped out of stealth and hassled me while I was trying to kill a quest objective. I ignored him and went on with my game, but saw him doing the same thing in other rooms later. In hindsight is something like this reportable?

 

I'd report it, because either way it's disruptive towards other people's gameplay and isn't done out of coincidence or accident. This is clearly being done out of spite and an urge to grief other players.

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I'd report it, because either way it's disruptive towards other people's gameplay and isn't done out of coincidence or accident. This is clearly being done out of spite and an urge to grief other players.

 

Exactly. This is harassment plain and simple. You do this kind of behavior in the real world and you'd get to have a talk with police, but for some reason some people think it's okay just because it's a game.

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Seems to be a more common issue. Yesterday I was freeing the Jedi in the cages and was fighting a mob and had an imp player healing the mobs I was trying to kill. It was a pve instance so nothing I could do about it. Really annoying because you are interfering with my gameplay for no reason. If I was in the pvp instance I would not have cared, I expect that in the pvp instance, however, in a pve instance I should not have to deal with that level of garbage.
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I'd report it, because either way it's disruptive towards other people's gameplay and isn't done out of coincidence or accident. This is clearly being done out of spite and an urge to grief other players.

 

It is only reportable when there is a clear case of interference rather than just merely annoying. for example mass AOE heals on allied republic targets that imperials have to kill and can't because the republic players are dilberately being abusive. That would be a case where it can be reported on since it is completely disruptive.

 

if there is a case like that, it should most certainly be reported on.

 

Exactly. This is harassment plain and simple. You do this kind of behavior in the real world and you'd get to have a talk with police, but for some reason some people think it's okay just because it's a game.

 

Saying you are being bullied and actually proving it are entirely different matters. The police can't act unless there is proof of these claims, otherwise they'd be searching and turning up nothing. It isn't right to bully someone i agree but it also isn't right to throw accusations around without proof.

Edited by Celise
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Yesterday I was freeing the Jedi in the cages and was fighting a mob and had an imp player healing the mobs I was trying to kill. It was a pve instance so nothing I could do about it. Really annoying because you are interfering with my gameplay for no reason. If I was in the pvp instance I would not have cared, I expect that in the pvp instance, however, in a pve instance I should not have to deal with that level of garbage.

Arguably, though, aren't they just RPing? Must a player who likes to RP ignore bad things happening to NPCs of their faction, even if in-character they wouldn't ignore it? From a certain perspective, that seems rather immersion-breaking.

:confused:

Edited by Estelindis
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Arguably, though, aren't they just RPing? Must a player who likes to RP ignore bad things happening to NPCs of their faction, even if in-character they wouldn't ignore it? From a certain perspective, that seems rather immersion-breaking.

:confused:

 

Roleplaying is acting out a fantasy based on events rather than being apart of them at that time. With that said it doesn't give those acting out the fantasy the right to ruin someone elses fun simply because they believe it is part of their roleplaying adventure.

 

One can't defend the enactment of the fantasy of being abusive and disruptive when the rules are made clear on the subject from the start.

Edited by Celise
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Arguably, though, aren't they just RPing? Must a player who likes to RP ignore bad things happening to NPCs of their faction, even if in-character they wouldn't ignore it? From a certain perspective, that seems rather immersion-breaking.

:confused:

 

I am a roleplayer and while I might do that to people in our sister guild I would not do that to anyone else, unless it was agreed upon. It would not be fair to the other person and especially if they are not a roleplayer.

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Seems to be a more common issue. Yesterday I was freeing the Jedi in the cages and was fighting a mob and had an imp player healing the mobs I was trying to kill. It was a pve instance so nothing I could do about it. Really annoying because you are interfering with my gameplay for no reason. If I was in the pvp instance I would not have cared, I expect that in the pvp instance, however, in a pve instance I should not have to deal with that level of garbage.

 

I normally don't kill the mobs first anymore, I will unlock the cages, while my companion is fighting the mobs due to this or the fact someone else would pop up and unlock the cages while I was fighting. I learn this doing Yavin and CZ.

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Arguably, though, aren't they just RPing? Must a player who likes to RP ignore bad things happening to NPCs of their faction, even if in-character they wouldn't ignore it? From a certain perspective, that seems rather immersion-breaking.

:confused:

 

I completely agree that it's immersion-breaking to watch the other faction smashing up the place (for Reps) or fixing the stuff you smashed (for Imps). But if you want to try to stop them, you can go to the PVP instance. Healing NPCs in a PVE instance where the other players can't stop you (or trying to interfere in other annoying ways) is just griefing.

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I completely agree that it's immersion-breaking to watch the other faction smashing up the place (for Reps) or fixing the stuff you smashed (for Imps). But if you want to try to stop them, you can go to the PVP instance. Healing NPCs in a PVE instance where the other players can't stop you (or trying to interfere in other annoying ways) is just griefing.

 

RP'ing in a pvp instance? haha :p

difficult to enact a fantasy when your entire rp team has been slain by some random imp player not in RP. Besides the point anyway.

 

One doesn't need to be disruptive to someone else to have fun. just keep it clean and everyone comes away happy.

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Roleplaying is acting out a fantasy based on events rather than being apart of them at that time.

Is that what RPing is? Clearly my 20 years of RPing experience has been lacking, since that's not exactly how I would've defined it. :p Personally I RP lots of things, including the actions my characters take when running around in shared areas with mobs - even the actions they don't take. For example, ever since the story of agent chapter 2, my operative has avoided killing any Republic NPCs (except those who must be killed, with no other choice, according to critical central plot, which unfortunately sometimes includes members of large groups of mobs standing beside critical plot items that she has to click out of stealth). Her sneaking around sleep-darting lots of mobs who'd otherwise attack her (and ending up woefully underlevelled when I played her back at launch, lol) is part of my RP. So personally I see RP as something that can be part of events, or parallel / adjacent to events , or even purposely fully separated from events - as something we can do by taking part or by refraining from taking part. What matters is that we make choices based on what our characters would do. :)

 

With that said it doesn't give those acting out the fantasy the right to ruin someone elses fun simply because they believe it is part of their roleplaying adventure. One can't defend the enactment of the fantasy of being abusive and disruptive when the rules are made clear on the subject from the start.

Is it established clearly somewhere that healing same-faction NPCs is considered abuse by Bioware? I personally haven't seen this so I'd appreciate being pointed towards it.

 

I can easily imagine how someone would heal same-faction NPCs without the slightest wish to be abusive or disruptive to someone else's experience. They can think of it as helping the NPC rather than hindering the opposing PC, so assuming there must be ill-will is unfair. (Perhaps there is some obliviousness to how it would affect the other person, but this isn't quite the same thing.) At the same time, if Bioware came out and told everyone unequivocally that they're not allowed to do it, or even made it so that it couldn't mechanically be done once that NPC was engaged in combat by a member of the opposite faction, that would provide a level of clarity that would likely stop these RPers from accidentally annoying other people.

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RP'ing in a pvp instance? haha :p

difficult to enact a fantasy when your entire rp team has been slain by some random imp player not in RP. Besides the point anyway.

 

One doesn't need to be disruptive to someone else to have fun. just keep it clean and everyone comes away happy.

 

Well, that's why you won't find me in the PVP instance trying to stop the Imps! :)

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I'm with Estelendis on this one. The whole point of the Jedi temple is based on cross faction. Every battle I have seen there involves the two sides fighting against each other. At worst, I would consider it gentle ribbing.

 

In this case, moreover, if your faction is still in the mini-battle, you will be taking down the other side faster. For the Conquest-seekers, this means faster kills. Given the respawn rate, even if your faction wasn't present, they would be appearing quickly and you would want to be nabbing them right away.

 

Also, to the extent the quest objectives are separate it doesn't stop you from clicking your item.

 

I suppose an intellectually honest argument could be made about healing the NPCs, but in this particular locale, I would find that questionable absent an explicit statement from Bioware. It would only impact your quest achieving ability if you were rampage seeking, and there are plenty of areas to do that.

 

NB4 I'm doing this -- I'm not -- I'm not Conquest seeking at this point. Still just questing. Just don't mind one tiny area having a little bit of rib poking at the other given its minimal impact.

 

Bottom line: There is an in-game RP reason and an in-game functional reason (faster kills) to do this.

 

Dasty

Edited by Jdast
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TBH up until this thread I had no idea it was even possible to heal an NPC of the other faction when they were engaged in battle. I had thought that once the NPC's name was greyed out and was someone else's target, that was it. That's probably how it should be.

 

I don't think Bioware has mentioned healing specifically, but I just checked the ToS and they do say that players cannot:

 

Interfere with or disrupt another player's use of an EA Service. This includes disrupting the normal flow of game play, chat or dialogue within an EA Service by, for example, using vulgar or harassing language, being abusive, excessive shouting (all caps), spamming, flooding or hitting the return key repeatedly.

 

I feel like healing an NPC that another player is trying to kill would qualify as "disrupting the normal flow of game play" or "Interfere with or disrupt another player's use of an EA Service."

 

For me, I did screencap the fight that the Republic character was spamming AoEs on, so I can report them.

 

FWIW I ran into this outside the Jedi Temple too - some yahoo was AoE spamming the Overheated Gift Droids on Nar Shaddaa. They weren't killable so I'm guessing they were just trying to keep people from seeing/targeting the OGD to be a jerk.

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I feel like healing an NPC that another player is trying to kill would qualify as "disrupting the normal flow of game play" or "Interfere with or disrupt another player's use of an EA Service."

Okay, I appreciate this point of view. In the context of the jedi temple, however, it is worth noting that friendly NPCs are often grouped close to hostile ones, and help us fight the hostile ones. This is part of the normal flow of gameplay in this area. I presume you wouldn't consider it disruptive if, as part of fighting hostile NPCs, players heal the friendly ones who help us?

Edited by Estelindis
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There were lots of problems with the TEF system (temporary enemy flag) in Star Wars Gaalxies, but it provided a solution to issues like this.

 

How are exactly am I a good Jedi if I ignore the Master Sentinels being attacked right in front of me? Clearly there is a distinction between healing friendly NPCs because of immersion/RP and griefing. But you can’t “flag” yourself for pvp anymore, and I think too many people would object to “forced pvp” under a TEF-like system.

 

Therefore I think the solution might be just to ensure that heals don’t affect NPCs that aren’t a part of your group. Obviously there are instances in KOTFE and KOTET and beyond (like at the farmstead when you are with Tau Idair and Nadia Grell) where you might have a few NPCs under your purview... you need to be able to heal them in that scenario... but those are all phased encounters. Yes, you can summon a mandalorian NPC to help you in the open world of Darvannis during KOTFE 14, but not being able to heal that NPC in the open world seems like a small sacrifice for the bigger advantage of shutting down griefing. So there should be some way to shut off healing of NPCs outside your group when in the open world. That seems like the only solution, since pvp is effectively disabled outside of war zones in pve gameplay focus areas of open world.

 

I mean, this problem can occur anywhere, but given Ossus’ importance to end game gearing, it’s going to persist much longer than it would on a planet like Quesh for example.

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Is that what RPing is? Clearly my 20 years of RPing experience has been lacking, since that's not exactly how I would've defined it. :p Personally I RP lots of things, including the actions my characters take when running around in shared areas with mobs - even the actions they don't take. For example, ever since the story of agent chapter 2, my operative has avoided killing any Republic NPCs (except those who must be killed, with no other choice, according to critical central plot, which unfortunately sometimes includes members of large groups of mobs standing beside critical plot items that she has to click out of stealth). Her sneaking around sleep-darting lots of mobs who'd otherwise attack her (and ending up woefully underlevelled when I played her back at launch, lol) is part of my RP. So personally I see RP as something that can be part of events, or parallel / adjacent to events , or even purposely fully separated from events - as something we can do by taking part or by refraining from taking part. What matters is that we make choices based on what our characters would do. :)

 

 

Is it established clearly somewhere that healing same-faction NPCs is considered abuse by Bioware? I personally haven't seen this so I'd appreciate being pointed towards it.

 

I can easily imagine how someone would heal same-faction NPCs without the slightest wish to be abusive or disruptive to someone else's experience. They can think of it as helping the NPC rather than hindering the opposing PC, so assuming there must be ill-will is unfair. (Perhaps there is some obliviousness to how it would affect the other person, but this isn't quite the same thing.) At the same time, if Bioware came out and told everyone unequivocally that they're not allowed to do it, or even made it so that it couldn't mechanically be done once that NPC was engaged in combat by a member of the opposite faction, that would provide a level of clarity that would likely stop these RPers from accidentally annoying other people.

 

You pretty much described your group fantasy there. Simple defintion for something not that overly complicated. I could create an entire story on a number of made up characters, the whole nine yards, it will still be based on a fantasy though.

 

As for the being abusive while RP'ing? Someone else already pointed it out for you. The rest of what you state is window dressing designed for an arguement, i'm not getting into that.

Edited by Celise
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Okay, I appreciate this point of view. In the context of the jedi temple, however, it is worth noting that friendly NPCs are often grouped close to hostile ones, and help us fight the hostile ones. This is part of the normal flow of gameplay in this area. I presume you wouldn't consider it disruptive if, as part of fighting hostile NPCs, players heal the friendly ones who help us?

 

I think it would depend if someone else were fighting them at the time. If someone's topping up the friendly NPCs waiting in the hallways or the NPCs engaged in a battle with each other, I wouldn't think anything of it. If they were topping up friendly NPCs who were fighting someone from the opposite faction at that particular moment I'd think of it as disrupting that person's gameplay by making it harder to kill the NPCs.

 

I'm thinking more about the situation that was mentioned on page one, where someone apparently healed a champion NPC over and over again until the person trying to kill the target died.

Edited by IoNonSoEVero
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I think it would depend if someone else were fighting them at the time. If someone's topping up the friendly NPCs waiting in the hallways or the NPCs engaged in a battle with each other, I wouldn't think anything of it. If they were topping up friendly NPCs who were fighting someone from the opposite faction at that particular moment I'd think of it as disrupting that person's gameplay by making it harder to kill the NPCs.

 

I'm thinking more about the situation that was mentioned on page one, where someone apparently healed a champion NPC over and over again until the person trying to kill the target died.

That seems like a balanced and fair perspective.

 

If I had to guess, I'd imagine that a RPer healing friendly NPCs would consider normal mobs more in need of help than champions, who should really be able to stand on their own two feet. ;)

 

I doubt, frankly, even a decent healer would be able to negate the damage output of an average DPS, but 1) I don't actually have the figures, and 2) relative competence/output is kinda beside the point, since everyone has the right to advance PvE story content even if they're not "hot stuff." Now that I think of it, I don't actually remember any core mission (vs. "bonus" missions) needing to defeat a certain number of opposite-faction mobs, so hopefully no one's story advancement has actually been impeded.

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That seems like a balanced and fair perspective.

 

If I had to guess, I'd imagine that a RPer healing friendly NPCs would consider normal mobs more in need of help than champions, who should really be able to stand on their own two feet. ;)

 

I doubt, frankly, even a decent healer would be able to negate the damage output of an average DPS, but 1) I don't actually have the figures, and 2) relative competence/output is kinda beside the point, since everyone has the right to advance PvE story content even if they're not "hot stuff." Now that I think of it, I don't actually remember any core mission (vs. "bonus" missions) needing to defeat a certain number of opposite-faction mobs, so hopefully no one's story advancement has actually been impeded.

 

Thank you. I think it would also depend on whether someone were doing it in the name of RP or in the name of being a griefer/jerk, too.

 

In terms of RP, though, I've always thought that a major component of it is consent, regardless of the type of RP it is. In other words, everybody participating in the RP is there voluntarily. I feel like someone healing friendly mobs in the middle of combat in the name of RP isn't abiding by that rule. The player who is facing the mobs they're healing has not consented to be a part of their RP.

 

I don't think that healing the mobs is as deterimental as healing the champions like the other poster was talking about, but I do think it still is distracting and makes players' jobs tougher. Also, it might interfere with someone getting their rampage numbers or up their repair bills.

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In terms of RP, though, I've always thought that a major component of it is consent, regardless of the type of RP it is. In other words, everybody participating in the RP is there voluntarily. I feel like someone healing friendly mobs in the middle of combat in the name of RP isn't abiding by that rule. The player who is facing the mobs they're healing has not consented to be a part of their RP.

I feel like RP in a game like this is always a hard thing to balance. If someone sees NPCs of their faction being attacked, and in-character they would help them (and consider it evil to stand aside and allow them to be killed), then in a sense demanding them not to intervene is imposing something on that person, without their consent. But we are all in this game together, having impacts on each other's experiences even in PvE settings (as this thread shows). From a RP perspective or otherwise, we can't always ask or expect consent from everyone for everything action that has an impact on our experience. We just have to find a happy medium and be considerate towards each other.* So, for instance, if a RPer becomes aware that they'd be having a negative impact on your play, it could lead them to play a bit differently, even if that interferes somewhat with how they'd like to RP. If they're fair people, they yield a bit so you can have a reasonable experience.

 

I personally feel like there's a huge amount of handwaving we have to do when RPing in this game anyway. It's the only MMO I've played, and when I first tried it after lots of playing only single-player RPGs, the notion of NPCs that reappear after being killed was totally mindbending to me. :D That's not something that exactly promotes immersion, lol. :p So if anyone is terribly torn up by allowing NPCs to be mown down in front of them, I'd suggest the NPCs weren't really killed after all - sure look, there they are, a minute later! ;)

 

*(Unfortunately I do think a lot relies on good will, and it's not always possible or fair to try to impose "good behaviour" on everyone. Some people, for example, will ninja mission objectives out from under the feet of people who've been waiting for them to respawn. Arguably that's "disrupting the normal flow of game play" or "interfering with another player's use of an EA Service." But I don't think we'd claim that's a breach of the ToS - it's just inconsiderate and rude. The "punishment" is people not liking the player, not a ban from the game. I'm not sure exactly where the line between rudeness and disruptiveness lies, to be honest. I just try to be considerate and hope most people do the same.)

Edited by Estelindis
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