What is the point of these? they are too hard for the average level 50-70 that is the demographic actually interested in "

story modes" that offer low end game gear in exchange for easier content

The problem is its not easy at all, even for a full group of 70s who are going in blind if you dont watch a vid you are basically just wasting your time, story modes should not require you to have half the raid guiding the other half through the mechanics or for all the players to have studied a clear video before hand.

Id like to see them nerfed so you can entice more people to actually sub to see the story of these OPs

Its scary to see that the shift of content development is going away from story and more into compansions/raids, this is not something the majority of your players want or will pay subs for, especially when 90% of the players will not step foot in these raids unless they are long time dedicated players (most are not)

What is the point of these? they are too hard for the average level 50-70 that is the demographic actually interested in "

story modes" that offer low end game gear in exchange for easier content

 

The problem is its not easy at all, even for a full group of 70s who are going in blind if you dont watch a vid you are basically just wasting your time, story modes should not require you to have half the raid guiding the other half through the mechanics or for all the players to have studied a clear video before hand.

 

Id like to see them nerfed so you can entice more people to actually sub to see the story of these OPs

 

Its scary to see that the shift of content development is going away from story and more into compansions/raids, this is not something the majority of your players want or will pay subs for, especially when 90% of the players will not step foot in these raids unless they are long time dedicated players (most are not)

No Story mode Operations definitely do not need a nerf. They have already been nerfed to the ground as it is (except GotM). Every other operations has had half of the mechanics that used to be in them when they came out REMOVED or nerfed already. The DPS checks are a joke, the Healing checks are a joke, and most of the Tank mechanics are non existent.

Personally I hope they don't nerf Story mode GoTM at all either. It isn't hard to do, but it definitely is more challenging then the rest of the story mode Operations. It's a good starting point to see if people are ready to actually enter a HM Operations other then EV/KP HM

I'm with the OP on this one. The raiders cried for more Ops but don't come back when they put in a new one. The ship sail out a long time ago on raiding in this game, they need to focus more on what makes this game great single player story. If they want to get more of the single players into raidering they, have to nerf story mode; so that the new players to OPs feel they can compete them and then maybe they will go on too try Vet. mode.

Their was already only 5% that played Ops in the 3.0-4.0 hay-day. Bioware has a problem of not understanding what the community wants; it's Way too late to try and get hard core raiders back in this game and if they focus any more on Ops and Group Content then they are going to lose the last major pool of players; the story single player.

I'm with the OP on this one. The raiders cried for more Ops but don't come back when they put in a new one. The ship sail out a long time ago on raiding in this game, they need to focus more on what makes this game great single player story. If they want to get more of the single players into raidering they, have to nerf story mode; so that the new players to OPs feel they can compete them and then maybe they will go on too try Vet. mode.

Their was already only 5% that played Ops in the 3.0-4.0 hay-day. Bioware has a problem of not understanding what the community wants; it's Way too late to try and get hard core raiders back in this game and if they focus any more on Ops and Group Content then they are going to lose the last major pool of players; the story single player.

The problem is they spent 2 years focusing on Single player story as you put it, and it lost a lot of players (not necessarily all hardcore raiders either). The problem as I see it is they made leveling so easy when they put in Level Sync, that players aren't learning the class they are playing well enough when leveling to understand it enough to raid. Lack of rotations (even if it isn't optimal is learned when leveling), Not standing in circles is learned when Leveling, Using Interuppts is learned when leveling. It's not that the raids are actually hard, it's the players aren't learning what they need to like prior to 4.0 while they are progressing to max level anymore.

When I was 1st starting out, I learned by reading the leveling tree's what abilities proc what, to help myself create a working rotation that killed mobs fast. I later changed it to be more optimal after I hit level cap, however it would have been good enough to beat SM bosses blindfolded. These are things people should look at before they decide to step into a raid.

Like seriously? ***, story mode OPs can't be more easy, given the raid members at least remotely can play their class. GftM is a bit harder but still easily doable. And it's justified because it's the only SM OP that drops 242 gear.

Also, the problem of the game in order to bind more subscribers is not too much but way too less Raid/endgame content. Too long they have driven away lots of subscribers by focusing on solo stuff, thanks to the outstanding incompetent and ignorant former producer.

If they can do both, cool, but first they have to fix the lack of enough Raid content.

I'm sure Bioware knows whether or not the SM Ops need a difficulty adjustment. One would think they'd be keeping track of the success rate of pugs in clearing the content in order to determine whether the difficulty needed adjusting.

I lean toward SM Ops being fine as they are, but if the OP is correct then must pugs would be failing to clear, and that should be something Bioware would be aware of.

The problem is its not easy at all, even for a full group of 70s who are going in blind if you dont watch a vid you are basically just wasting your time, story modes should not require you to have half the raid guiding the other half through the mechanics or for all the players to have studied a clear video before hand.

So what’s the point of anything if all you want to do is watch a video of how it’s done and then just copy that? Why even play? What ever happened to figuring out things on your own or have your group work together?

The whole point of Story Modes is to help you learn mechanics and then they typically add more mechanics for the harder versions.

Story Mode operations/everything are actually EASIER than they were at launch. I don’t see how they can possibly get any simpler.

Seriously, why not just have a YOU WIN button you press when the game launches that shuts it down then you don’t even have to play at all.

A "game too hard"-issue can be solved by making the game easier. However, that just tackles the symptons, not the reasons why the game is "too hard" for a certain group of players. The solution ist difficult. New players have to learn the game mechanics.

What do most of the players want? The want to do the story. Okay. Introduce different levels of difficulty for leveling. Every good single player game has an easiy mode, a hard mode and a master mode. These modes don't have to adjust the story-missions itself. We can easily just make the players character and the companions weaker. The easy mode should remain like the current level of difficuly. Hard mode should feel like in the good old times before level sync and OP-companions and Master Mode should be really hard. Leveling modes should be switchable, so, if someone starts at hard mode and is struggling with the quest, he can switch to easy mode. However, hard mode and master mode should grant you more cxp, so it speeds leveling up.

Oh, and add some shiny titles for finishing the storys in either mode. Maybe throw in some other nice rewards and players will replay the old story.

And, if you really want to help new players, introduce a check, how long they needed for the story missions, if they died etc. When they reach certain numbers, ask them, if they want to try a higher level of difficulty. If they are dieing over and over, ask them, if they want to lower the level of difficulty. Don't let them getting frustrated.

Regarding the OP: The problem will disappear with the l2p-issue.

Regarding the OP: The problem will disappear with the l2p-issue.

Yep, but I very much doubt they want to take a little time and make a little effort to l2p anything at all.

So what’s the point of anything if all you want to do is watch a video of how it’s done and then just copy that? Why even play? What ever happened to figuring out things on your own or have your group work together?

 

The whole point of Story Modes is to help you learn mechanics and then they typically add more mechanics for the harder versions.

 

Story Mode operations/everything are actually EASIER than they were at launch. I don’t see how they can possibly get any simpler.

 

Seriously, why not just have a YOU WIN button you press when the game launches that shuts it down then you don’t even have to play at all.

Sorry, but you should know your own rotations before going into OPs, even SM OPs. They are hella easy as is.

Story mode operations are too simple as it is. People run through them and then because most of the mechanics have been removed are positively STUNNED that'veteran' operations are ' So much harder' (they really aren't except the last three).

If you make story modes simpler the shock will be even worse. And for heavens sake who thought making a hard operation called veteran when flashpoint veteran were tactical was a good idea? So very misleading.

Yep, but I very much doubt they want to take a little time and make a little effort to l2p anything at all.

Then, probably, they should search Youtube with "Operation XY clear run with cut scenes". You don't even have to sub for that!

OMG not this again. Please repeat with me:

"SM operations are too easy already"

"SM operations dont need a nerf"

"I have to improve my skills instead of asking for nerfs"

Then youll be fine!

What is the point of these? they are too hard for the average level 50-70 that is the demographic actually interested in "

story modes" that offer low end game gear in exchange for easier content

 

The problem is its not easy at all, even for a full group of 70s who are going in blind if you dont watch a vid you are basically just wasting your time, story modes should not require you to have half the raid guiding the other half through the mechanics or for all the players to have studied a clear video before hand.

 

Id like to see them nerfed so you can entice more people to actually sub to see the story of these OPs

 

Its scary to see that the shift of content development is going away from story and more into compansions/raids, this is not something the majority of your players want or will pay subs for, especially when 90% of the players will not step foot in these raids unless they are long time dedicated players (most are not)

Seriously man, stop it, SM ops had its nerf round long ago and it didnt even need it!! There is nothing more they can nerf its already ridiculous to run a SM ops now, its tank and spank mostly with dpsing through mechanics!

So what’s the point of anything if all you want to do is watch a video of how it’s done and then just copy that? Why even play? What ever happened to figuring out things on your own or have your group work together?

 

The whole point of Story Modes is to help you learn mechanics and then they typically add more mechanics for the harder versions.

 

Story Mode operations/everything are actually EASIER than they were at launch. I don’t see how they can possibly get any simpler.

 

Seriously, why not just have a YOU WIN button you press when the game launches that shuts it down then you don’t even have to play at all.

Thanks for this posting. Exactly! People have totally forgotten what it actually means to play and have some challenge/fun/thrill/etc.. It's pathetic.

Sadly in my own guild's case (I play only since Feb 2016) the only boss we figured out wihout ANY help from external available info is Nahut. And it was great fun. In all other cases there was more or less info available and provided by guild members or myself.

And again, everyone who thinks SM OPs are too hard can not play the game and his class, not even remotely, and even lacks the attitude to learn both. That is sad...

Not another "nerf SM ops" thread!!

We have 2018 the operations have been around for so many years that ppl can do them blindfolded on SM, with one hand only!! If you have difficulty beating ops then go babck to what you were doing before like SM KOTFE chapter, class story with overpowered companions, solo flashooints with jesus droid, heroics with level sync etc

The game is so ridicously easy that the next nerf would be in the form of the "win button"

If you make story modes simpler the shock will be even worse. And for heavens sake who thought making a hard operation called veteran when flashpoint veteran were tactical was a good idea? So very misleading.

Yep, it's part of Bioware's in the industry unique incompentence to not even get the naming syntax right.

too hard for the average level 50-70

I really dont know what to say to this. This has been here before, threads like this. The good thing now is that Devs dont habe the resources to nerf cause they barely keep the game running. But in all seriousness, this is a learn to play issue not a problem of the ops being too hard. Check old patch notes SM opeses got nerfs already, any more would make it totaly easy.

I am what's considered a raider and I agree that SM Ops are not balanced right.

Back when this game started we actually didn't have Story Mode. We had Normal Mode and Normal Mode was overall tougher than Story Mode. Then with 4.0 when Bioware decided to make all ops the same and took out a bunch of mechanics.

Ideally, SM would be about experiencing the story and have just some basic core mechanics that are easily learned....but there is a problem: the exorbitant rewards for doing SM ops and the huge gap of difficulty between SM and HM.

So I do agree that SM should be nerfed but I also feel that Normal Mode should be brought back in order to facilitate that. Story Mode should never have replaced Normal Mode in essence.

The SM Ops should be level 50 or 55 and rather than bolstering them, they should be subject to level sync. Level sync is better for that because it will tone more powerful characters down rather than giving stats to lower level characters who are still missing set bonuses and some powerful skills they haven't gotten yet. Normal Mode should be level 70 and have all the mechanics that were ripped out put back in.

Currently SM ops still clearly can pose issues for average pugs. Master and Blaster, the Underlurker, Nahut come to mind for example. In essence the new ops is Normal Mode that's called Story Mode but isn't Story Mode.

But the biggest problem with the difficulty modes like SM Ops and Veteran FPs as that the difficult mode is just a mode and not an actual difficulty because the difficulty of the invidual Ops or Fps are not balanced at all and can vary wildly. That defeats the purpose of the GF. You see it clearly when GftM or EC are in the GF there are a lot less groups forming because people don't even want to bother. Also the focus on last boss fights which are great for CXP also make it so a lot of people don't get to do full ops groups and never learn the previous boss fights either.

All of this keeps people from learning mechanics and with the big gap with HM, it actually is a problem for progression and more people trying it out. SM can be too hard for pugs and when they try HM after it's another jump. It discourages people rather than encouraging them.

Add to that that the higher difficulty you play in Operations today, the less you get rewarded for it.

SM Ops has the GF daily, the ops weekly and counts for Conquest and offers 236 tokens, which is higher than what the first tier of crates offer and the same that tier 2 offers. So the downside is that it also devaluates the first two tiers of GC. But that's how powerful the rewards are.

HM Ops are harder and don't have a daily associated with them and the ops weekly is shared with SM. So if you did the ops in SM already, then you lose that for HM. So all you get in HM is 242 tokens. Now some may say that you gain extra CXP for killing those bosses. That is true, however, the daily GF rewards wipe out that difference easily. And a group will wipe more often in HM and there is a repair cost associated with that.

Also it requires a more specialised team that understands raiding and mechanics that are not required in SM. So we see that currently HM groups are hardly forming on the fleet nowadays. So it's hard to find groups and be successful. That also cuts down in the rewards and it also takes longer to do HM variants so in terms of CXP/min SM is better.

Now, you might still say that 242 tokens are definitely worth it. Well, yes and no. By themselves they are worth it but since SM gives more CXP you will get to tier 3 relatively quickly and together with the UCs you gain it's actually easier to just follow the crates and do EV and KP HM which are relatively easy HMs (although pugs can still struggle at the puzzle boss in KP since DPS never learned it in SM). And that means that the other 8 HM Operations are completely pointless. They are all harder than EV and KP but give no better rewards. And the missing tokens you don't get from EV and KP can easily be filled in by GC.

And then there's NiM. Well NiM doesn't drop 248 gear except the last boss and for most groups trying it it is a wipe fest and can costs millions before you finally down a boss. Aside from hardcore raiders most groups will struggle certainly at first. And then it drops 244 or maybe 246 and some extra UCs. Now 242 gear is actually better than 244. The 244 blue gear has the same rating as 242 but with worse stats division. (High endurance, lower output). So it's crap a lot of the time and once you get to 300 command, you will find that purple 246 gear is easy to come by.

All in all, GC is what devaluates content in this game, trivializes it and nowhere is that more clear than in Ops. When you want to do the harder modes there is a cost of wiping and marginal rewards. So people will only do this content to get an achievement and then leave it alone. There is no reason to repeat HM Revan for example. You have the achievement but to do it again there is no reward to make that worth it.

Bioware in their search to keep people busy ironically has made the easy content the most rewarding and made the rest one time only content. And the easy content is highly repeatable with people skipping as much as they can, which means an even higher repetition that will tire people of that content as well.

Story Mode is that content for ops. People do mostly last boss runs these days because that's what gives the rewards and pug groups that do the full run struggle. Actual raiders don't want to be stuck in SM anyway so they'll gladly do last boss runs because there is only boredom to be found in SM for them and the average pug might not make it through. That shows me that SM Ops currently do not meet the needs of raiders nor casuals.

So yes, if it's called Story Mode it should be easy and all of it. Not some of it yes, some of it not. But we also need a Normal Mode again that is the starting difficulty of raiders at max level. But also in Normal Mode the operations should be roughly of the same difficulty or rewards should differ. Getting the same level of rewards from EV HM as in ToS HM just makes no sense.

I dont fully agree with you Tsillah but you did have a few good points:

So I do agree that SM should be nerfed

I do not agree here as the operations itself have all the basics of that content. They have trash mobs and boss fights. The bosses have certain mechanics that vary boss to boss. Some even have raid wiping mechanics like the EC mine field. Overall there has to be a limit to which you nerf the operation to still stay and "operation" I think that limit is reached and more nerfs will make these flashpoint bosses, which we certainly dont want.

Currently SM ops still clearly can pose issues for average pugs. Master and Blaster, the Underlurker, Nahut come to mind for example. In essence the new ops is Normal Mode that's called Story Mode but isn't Story Mode.

Its not the "normal mode" its just that certain bosses are meant to be "Pug Killers" and that is good, its needed to remind them that operations are not a walk in the park and they do need to use more than Basic ability, I am glad some bosses are like that, we always had Underlurker, Draxus, Minefield etc to remind ppl that they need to learn mechanics, not just mindlessly dps the boss.

That defeats the purpose of the GF. You see it clearly when GftM or EC are in the GF there are a lot less groups forming because people don't even want to bother. Also the focus on last boss fights which are great for CXP also make it so a lot of people don't get to do full ops groups and never learn the previous boss fights either.

This is the problem of the Devs, it was same with Priority ops, everyone die KP and EV for gear, no one went Prio ops when EC was on But they already introduced an important feature, which is Role In Need! Its a great idea which I used a few times already. The rewards are ridiculous but its a good idea, reward more for whats not being done. So like give more CXP for those operations that are being avoided. Players are like Donkeys, they go for the carrot!! You can also see that on the Team Ranked rewards now. So have them buff HM operation rewards like EC HM, might make ppl learn the ops!

HM Ops are harder and don't have a daily associated with them and the ops weekly is shared with SM. So if you did the ops in SM already, then you lose that for HM. So all you get in HM is 242 tokens.

Yes, all you get is 242s but that is GREAT!! The way the Unassembled components work now is simply fantastic! You get so many and can use them to convert 242s to 248, so by doing HMs and PVP or even without PVP you can get the highest gear in the game! You can also get it for alts via legacy gear, its simply perfect! Doing NiMs for example is actually a waste thats the real problem, not HMs. HMs are very very rewarding since you get gear to upgrade to Tier 4, relatively easily and you get a bunch of CXP.

There is no reason to repeat HM Revan for example. You have the achievement but to do it again there is no reward to make that worth it.

Well you get the Revachnist title on that character, so if you do it with other characters you can have more Revachnist toons but yes, with most bosses its just about getting the achievement done, mainly for the 16M runs, which are in some cases, done only once like Monolith, Master and Blaster etc. Still there are several guilds doing NiMs over and over, mainly sales but also for the 200 Ucs from last boss or mounts and titles.

people skipping as much as they can, which means an even higher repetition that will tire people of that content as well.

This is also a problem as the only thing you see on fleet is LFG for XXX Operation "only last boss". Since the GF bonus and Weekly only depends on last boss people skip the whole operation just to get the reward at the end. So Bioware should work on this and please not in a way that they will hinder ppl to use "the toon with lock" but in a way that doing full run is more rewarding that just the last boss.

apparently kephess in terror from beyond is extremely OP and master and blaster from ravagers are so nerfed the ground doesn't exist any more on those two.

the operations are fine the way they are.

Maybe the OP is referring to SM Ops prior to level synch when you could clear Denova/EC with a single group? And while I do miss being able to farm Ops with a single group, they still aren't difficult with level synch as long as your with competent players who are coordinating in VOIP. In other words, get in a guild.

If you try to PUG Ops, however, don't be surprised when it fails and the raid implodes on itself. No amount of easy is going to fix stupidity and lack of cooperation.

What is the point of these? they are too hard for the average level 50-70 that is the demographic actually interested in "

story modes" that offer low end game gear in exchange for easier content

 

The problem is its not easy at all, even for a full group of 70s who are going in blind if you dont watch a vid you are basically just wasting your time, story modes should not require you to have half the raid guiding the other half through the mechanics or for all the players to have studied a clear video before hand.

 

Id like to see them nerfed so you can entice more people to actually sub to see the story of these OPs

 

Its scary to see that the shift of content development is going away from story and more into compansions/raids, this is not something the majority of your players want or will pay subs for, especially when 90% of the players will not step foot in these raids unless they are long time dedicated players (most are not)

Are you for real? Story mode is NOT hard. Learn the mechanics. Youtube is your friend.

Story modes are perfectly tuned imo...the only one that I don't think is, is the new Ops boss, but big deal. Hard modes are what need to be tuned down. Hard modes should be a step up from Story, not a leap to absurdity. Nightmare is where the full challenge should be.

Here is how I think the averages should look:

SM should be able to be completed by 85-90% of the players...I believe that's likely the case now.

HM should be 40-50% of the players

NiM should be 10-15% of the players

We need progression, not roadblocks. HM should not be where groups get stuck.