I have been playing jugg for the past few months and decided to change it up. I asked around and wanted to play a class that was challenging in PvP. I decided to go with merc, because I heard they have a hard time in PvP. People informed me they have terrible defenses, but after playing for a little over a week on my 65 merc, I do not understand why they say this? I have not done much ranked yet but have done a few matches. I am 4-1 rn. I am still trying to learn the class better but I am able to easily win 1v2's on my merc, I even once won a 1v3.

 

With utilities that grant an extra 5% dmg reduction, reduces the CD of energy shield by 3secs every 1.5secs (if I'm not mistaken), another 2 utilities which can make you immune to interrupts, and more. Plus the class abilities such as energy shield which reduces dmg reduction by 25%, or chaff flare with can stop 5 yellow attacks (if I'm not mistaken again :), hydrolic override, and more, why do people say merc/mando sucks in pvp?

 

Btw, i have played for arsenal and innovative ordnance merc and find both to be good.

Most mercs are god awful players. The problem is that they don't learn how to properly play this class through the mechanics the entire game provides. Leveling up you literally don't have to do anything but death from above, sweeping blasters and auto attack. You don't even have to move. In ops as long as you can run your rotation you honestly don't have to do much on a merc. There is nothing in the game to truly prepare mercs for PvP which for this particular class is almost a completely different world than PvE. This is probably the one class where the playstyle requirements from PvP are so different that PvE content (all except for the highest level) actually hinders mercs from being good in PvP. And practicing in lowbies doesn't help because ranged as a whole are just so incredibly OP in lowbies. Usually the mercs complaining just want to stand still, run a simple rotation and blow everything up and pat themselves on the back for how "great" they are. It's not really their fault, just a case of very bad balancing for skill on the game designers' part.

 

Mercs have very good mobility, amazing burst, good defenses (I would love a 10s force shroud on a 45s CD), heavy armor, self heals and probably the most broken FU ability in the game. I honestly don't know what more they want. They seem to want melee defenses, DoT sorc kiting, sniper burst and probably stealth as well.

 

The only merc spec that actually needs a buff is heals since the energy management there is a nightmare, other than that I would say mercs are one of the best classes in the game atm. An above average player can do a lot with them, but I would say out of all the mercs I see in the game maybe less than 5% of them would be considered above average.

Edited May 28, 2016 by sithBracer

Most mercs are god awful players. The problem is that they don't learn how to properly play this class through the mechanics the entire game provides. Leveling up you literally don't have to do anything but death from above, sweeping blasters and auto attack. You don't even have to move. In ops as long as you can run your rotation you honestly don't have to do much on a merc. And usually the mercs complaining just want to stand still, run a simple rotation and blow everything up and pat themselves on the back for how "great" they are.

 

Mercs have very good mobility, amazing burst, good defenses (I would love a 10s force shroud on a 45s CD), heavy armor, self heals and probably the most broken FU ability in the game. I honestly don't know what more they want. They seem to want melee defenses, DoT sorc kiting, sniper burst and probably stealth as well.

 

The only merc spec that actually needs a buff is heals since the energy management there is a nightmare, other than that I would say mercs are one of the best classes in the game atm. An above average player can do a lot with them, but I would say out of all the mercs I see in the game maybe less than 5% of them would be considered above average.

 

Queue more ranked.

Arsenal is fine IQ is ok Bodyguard is bad considering what it's competition is.

Queue more ranked.

 

If you can't play a merc well with a sorc healer on your team (and it is pretty safe to assume that you will get one probably 4/7 or 5/7 times since they always queue) then I don't know what to tell you.

 

Arsenal is fine IQ is ok Bodyguard is bad considering what it's competition is.

 

Yeah the first thing they need to fix is the energy management. It is truly a nightmare in PvP.

Edited May 28, 2016 by sithBracer

If you can't play a merc well with a sorc healer on your team (and it is pretty safe to assume that you will get one probably 4/7 or 5/7 times since they always queue) then I don't know what to tell you.

 

If you think I'm getting a sorc healer (or any healer) 4-5/7 ranked queues, then I don't know what to tell you.

Edited May 28, 2016 by DsevenO

obvious troll is obvious, not even worth the effort.

OP probably playing against bads. Merc has terrible DCD's and mobility.

Tbh it was a learning curve at first but I see what the op is saying. I also wanted a challenge in pvp so I decided to roll and arsenal merc and man if you don't know what your doing you'll get rolled on a merc but if you know how to run circles on people and maintain the utilities and your shield you can reck havoc. You have to los while trying to blow people up its basically playing a marksman hunter and Ret paladin from wow. I love this class and believe it takes a high player level skill to fully understand how to use this class and be lethal in pvp. They have good defenses for how much single damage burst they can do.

I would love a 10s force shroud on a 45s CD

 

I'm sure you would but besides that you have a deep misunderstanding of what Decoy does.

 

5 charges x 1 resist of single target force/tech

 

Dots are applied and will not be removed or resisted

Force/Tech AOE hits you

Knockbacks knock you

Stuns stun you (but the damage portion will be absorbed if F/T)

CC will control you

 

Due to being charge based not duration based a channel of Force Lightning will strip off 4 charges by itself or simply any kind of multiple single target hits will strip charges off. Obviously it's doing its job but 10s is how long they last if they don't do anything, the protection can be considerably shorter depending on what consumes them.

 

10s shroud on a 45s cooldown?

 

Heh.

 

It's a damage cheese against yellow single target and that's it.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Gyronamics

I'm sure you would but besides that you have a deep misunderstanding of what Decoy does.

 

5 charges x 1 resist of single target force/tech

 

Dots are applied and will not be removed or resisted

Force/Tech AOE hits you

Knockbacks knock you

Stuns stun you (but the damage portion will be absorbed if F/T)

CC will control you

 

Due to being charge based not duration based a channel of Force Lightning will strip off 4 charges by itself or simply any kind of multiple single target hits will strip charges off. Obviously it's doing its job but 10s is how long they last if they don't do anything, the protection can be considerably shorter depending on what consumes them.

 

10s shroud on a 45s cooldown?

 

Heh.

 

It's a damage cheese against yellow single target and that's it.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

snippet

 

You obviously don't understand what hyperbole is, but I'll respond to your points.

Dots are applied and will not be removed or resisted

Not a big deal, but fine I'll give you that one.

 

Force/Tech AOE hits you

So the only AoE you have to worry about is death field. No other AoE is a danger to you as you are a ranged class that will probably not (well you might) stand in dog pile fights where people usually use force based AoEs.

 

Knockbacks knock you

You're a ranged class, learn to play like one. If you're getting KBed as an interrupt it means you are already playing the class wrong. Honestly, is KB really such a problem for you that you specifically have to mention it?

 

Stuns stun you (but the damage portion will be absorbed if F/T)

I tested this a few days ago. Stuns did not stun if damage is abosrbed. You can probably get mezzed though.

 

Due to being charge based not duration based a channel of Force Lightning will strip off 4 charges by itself or simply any kind of multiple single target hits will strip charges off. Obviously it's doing its job but 10s is how long they last if they don't do anything, the protection can be considerably shorter depending on what consumes them.

 

Its funny, when I and others brought up this exact issue when BW changed this ability, you and floppy insulted us and said that BWs change was exactly perfect and what was needed. And here you are, still complaining.

Edited May 29, 2016 by sithBracer

 

You're a ranged class, learn to play like one. If you're getting KBed as an interrupt it means you are already playing the class wrong. Honestly, is KB really such a problem for you that you specifically have to mention it?

it's pretty easy to maintain range/kite 1v1. it's very difficult 2v1, but depending on the class, it's managable. it's quite impossible 3v1. DPS merc problems are in 4v4 without healer and/or tank. I will say that when a healer is present, things are less difficult, but you do have to hard cast, and melee have an absurd number of ways to close on mercs. that said. I agree that mercs have a lot of mobility. more than they should, but everybody has too much mobility. it just pales in comparison to madness sorcs, as do their DCDs, heals and roots.

 

as far as specing into shield heroic utility goes, it is a must for healers and makes sense for them as they are relatively stationary. it's virtually impossible for DPS mercs to take that utility outside of trinity, because

• you're giving up 30% stun reduction (most valuable - you will be stunned a lot);
  
• or the channel on the move (bolts on the move is your most reliable kiting tool, not enet which is only good for one enemy once and once broken cannot be reapplied);
  
• or smoke screen...the thing that makes Rocket Out an escape as opposed to a resource generator for the 2-4 warriors chasing you.
  

 

the landscape changes in trinity. this is yolo queue, mind you, where the team comps aren't synergized. if they are, it's more difficult for mercs than sorcs or snipers b/c you're giving up a ton of synergy to get an enet, but anyway...if the teams aren't synergized, then a merc in trinity is pretty even ground, imo. also, mercs complaining about life in regs are just bad. I solo regs all the time. it's fine. but in arenas...yeah. umm. dps mercs are at a distinct disadvantage.

 

 

I tested this a few days ago. Stuns did not stun if damage is abosrbed. You can probably get mezzed though.

I will pre-emptively pop flares all the time b/c any opponent other than carny or sniper is going to hit me with force/tech (or he'll have to hold back on his burst). and it does help. but I assure you, the stuns still happen. they don't really bother me. 30% DR while stunned is good enough to get you through the first one if it's only 2v1. 3v1 can be brutal if they use the "right" abils.

 

but the shield DR feels pretty useless afterward, and there's no protection from leaps. nor are there any roots on the kb. and mercs are the slowest AC in the game. not a problem 1v1, but with 2 ppl on you, the game is...don't die as long as you can, and hope the other team's PT/sniper/op/sin dies slightly before you do. I really feel the nerf to HO cd and would trade the new RO (unbuffed) for my 15s back in any arena (except maybe corellia).

it's pretty easy to maintain range/kite 1v1. it's very difficult 2v1, but depending on the class, it's managable. it's quite impossible 3v1. DPS merc problems are in 4v4 without healer and/or tank. I will say that when a healer is present, things are less difficult, but you do have to hard cast, and melee have an absurd number of ways to close on mercs. that said. I agree that mercs have a lot of mobility. more than they should, but everybody has too much mobility. it just pales in comparison to madness sorcs, as do their DCDs, heals and roots.

 

You were one of the people who agreed with us on the chaffe flare buff and were pretty respectful so I'll answer your questions normally. If you can effectively kite 1 and with difficulty kite 2 while effectively pumping out massively powerful damage, I don't understand what the problem is. I don't know of any class that can kite 3 while doing massive damage.

 

This is not a DoT class, it is not meant to kite everything, it is a burst class, it is meant to kite just long enough for you to blow the enemy up. If you are kiting 3 and dying because of that, the problem is not the class, it is your teammates. A DoT class needs to kite because it's DoTs take time to do damage. Demolish doesn't do 15-17k crits and 23k super crits. Sorcs don't have a moving channel that can do massive damage. They set up DoTs and kite while the DoTs eat away at them. That is the class. If you want a DoT class so badly, play a DoT class.

 

A class can't have everything, if it does, then it is OP. This is why so many people want a sorc and PT nerf. If you want things like PW, or super bubble, you need to give up things you currently have like e-net, the insane burst or the instants. It seems like everyone wants sorc like kiting, jugg like defenses, sniper like burst but don't want to channel, give up mobility, range or e-net in return.

 

As far as mobility, I would disagree with you. In 3.0 I would've agreed but with the addition of rocket out and the nerf for force speed, mercs are not that far from sorcs when it comes to mobility and kiting. I know you're used to seeing sorcs run really fast from the dark heal buff but I assure you this is not normal for madness, it is usually corruption that gets it from it's instant dark heal (or a teammate gave them the buff).

 

And lastly, in solo ranked you should almost always have a sorc healer with you. They are queuing all the time. I would probably bet half the sorcs on the leaderboards are corruption. Unlike 3.X so far I have not even had 1 solo ranked match that didn't have a healer and only 2 that didn't have a sorc healer. So the whole "oh but da 4dps v 4dps" is really not an argument these days, esp on harb.

 

sorry for the length, you kind of put a lot of stuff in your post and I wanted to address all of it, since like I wrote, I'm responding properly to you.

 

I will pre-emptively pop flares all the time b/c any opponent other than carny or sniper is going to hit me with force/tech (or he'll have to hold back on his burst). and it does help. but I assure you, the stuns still happen. they don't really bother me. 30% DR while stunned is good enough to get you through the first one if it's only 2v1. 3v1 can be brutal if they use the "right" abils.

 

I have seen it happen many times. On my operative I think it happens once since I usually just FB them during chaffe flare or just bite the bullet and take out the stacks. It happened on my inquisitors a lot of times though. probably last week was my 5th or 6th time (mostly because I haven't play assassin in a very long while and am still making juvenile mistakes due to being rusty). None of the times was the resolve full. Is it possible the stacks just ran out when you were stunned?

 

but the shield DR feels pretty useless afterward, and there's no protection from leaps. nor are there any roots on the kb. and mercs are the slowest AC in the game. not a problem 1v1, but with 2 ppl on you, the game is...don't die as long as you can, and hope the other team's PT/sniper/op/sin dies slightly before you do. I really feel the nerf to HO cd and would trade the new RO (unbuffed) for my 15s back in any arena (except maybe corellia).

 

I personally always combined my shield DR with KO. It gave me like 8 seconds of god mode where even 4 dps had a hard time taking me down. I would disagree about rocket out. It is a great mobility tool that takes some time and knowledge to get to work right. And you don't know slow until you are a melee class with a 25s CD (with utility) on your only speed boost that lasts for 2s. It would put phantom stride on a 2 hour CD to get my 15s force speed back.

 

Here is a cool use of rocket out I saw a friend use:

 

There are all sorts of positioning things you can do with this ability in arenas that really confuse the enemy.

You obviously don't understand what hyperbole is, but I'll respond to your points.

 

Not a big deal, but fine I'll give you that one.

 

So the only AoE you have to worry about is death field. No other AoE is a danger to you as you are a ranged class that will probably not (well you might) stand in dog pile fights where people usually use force based AoEs.

 

You're a ranged class, learn to play like one. If you're getting KBed as an interrupt it means you are already playing the class wrong. Honestly, is KB really such a problem for you that you specifically have to mention it?

 

I tested this a few days ago. Stuns did not stun if damage is abosrbed. You can probably get mezzed though.

 

Its funny, when I and others brought up this exact issue when BW changed this ability, you and floppy insulted us and said that BWs change was exactly perfect and what was needed. And here you are, still complaining.

 

Look at all this hyperaggressive BS you come out with when I take your comparison of Decoy and Shroud and dismantle it. You actually pull up trash scenarios to talk down differences between the two.

 

Even when you try to be right you're still wrong, I can be very certain about this because I made the effort to double check everything before posting with a guild member instead of relying on memory: http://s33.postimg.org/sxz73uhnj/tmp.png

 

Stuns will stun through Decoy even when the F/T portion is absorbed.

 

And even when I post a neutral A is not B post you apparently have such a sore butt about harsh words you think I used that all you can ever think of is the memory of how sore you were about it and therefore it has to be mentioned again.

 

I'm worried that you think about me much more than I do about you, stop taking it personally. I really do not care who makes the posts I reply to, you're all just people posting things I disagree with.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Gyronamics

Look at all this hyperaggressive BS you come out with when I take your comparison of Decoy and Shroud and dismantle it. You actually pull up trash scenarios to talk down differences between the two.

 

I'm sorry that you don't understand what an obvious hyperbole is, but where in my post was anything hyperaggressive?

 

I looked at the picture it says you were lifted after decoy, it doesn't say you were stunned.

 

EDIT-one thing I should add though, so far the stun was only blocked against mercs. I haven't tried (or seen it happen) against a commando.

Edited May 29, 2016 by sithBracer

The problem of Merc/Mando in 4v4 solo queue is simple: their defensives do not scale well with the number of players attacking them.

 

A sorc can bubble / pw ; a stealthie vanish / pw / roll far away ; a mara can vanish / reduce all damage by 99%..

... and it's effective against ALL attackers : AOE dcd

 

What are Mando's AOE dcd?

- Hold the line with Resolve bar full

- energy shield - 25% dmg reduced for 12 sec -

- Adre rush

- Rocket Out

- AOE knockback.

 

None of those DCD will break focus. Most classes have better versions of them.

So in yolo 4dps vs 4dps (which are by far the majority, the guy saying there are healer sorcs in every game is on crack lol), one team has a mando and not the other. At equal skill level, the mando will die first, opponent team will heal/stall/gain time then 4V3 then GG.

You were one of the people who agreed with us on the chaffe flare buff and were pretty respectful so I'll answer your questions normally. If you can effectively kite 1 and with difficulty kite 2 while effectively pumping out massively powerful damage, I don't understand what the problem is. I don't know of any class that can kite 3 while doing massive damage.

 

no healer can burst heal through 3 competent dps.

 

edit: there are a lot of pops with healers in them. I wouldn't take issue with that. I'd say around 50% give or take 10%. (on TEH and JC)

Edited May 29, 2016 by foxmob

I'm sorry that you don't understand what an obvious hyperbole is, but where in my post was anything hyperaggressive?

 

I looked at the picture it says you were lifted after decoy, it doesn't say you were stunned.

 

EDIT-one thing I should add though, so far the stun was only blocked against mercs. I haven't tried (or seen it happen) against a commando.

If you actually looked at the picture you would see that a stun effect is logged, as-well as the effect called Humility. Which is an utility on sage that activates after a succesful stun.

I looked at the picture it says you were lifted after decoy, it doesn't say you were stunned.

 

He gets Force Stunned and Force Stun does it's damage then he gets Lifted. He then activates Decoy, gets Lifted then Force Stunned only this time Decoy absorbs the damage from Force Stun but doesn't block the Stun effect.

 

Decoy is an extra cast of Force Lightning. Whoopty doo. Shroud is a hard switch. No comparison.

If you actually looked at the picture you would see that a stun effect is logged, as-well as the effect called Humility. Which is an utility on sage that activates after a succesful stun.

 

Maybe I'm not reading the log right and if so please forgive me, but seems to me what I am seeing (please correct me if I am wrong).

 

1. The stunned effect is starting at 0.012

2. the force stun damage is done at 0.36

3. the humility effect starts at 4.39 (humility starts after force stun ends, idk if this is done via event or timing, but lets assume timing).

4. force lifted started at around 4.6

 

from here it gets a little hard to understand but

 

5. I assume he breaks at 5.4.

6. he uses decoy at 8.82.

7. at 12.53 the lifted effect ended (I am going by timing here btw, I know he broke but I assume in their logging this is how they track it).

8. at 14.14 the humility effect ended.

 

Once again, I am not an expert on parsing logs as I only use starparse for raids, but this is what I got from it. The other explanation is that the sage somehow managed to use 2 force stuns in a span of 14 seconds.

 

EDIT-either way I am curious to find out now if it is possible to stun through CF. Like I said this was not a one time thing for me. I would love to settle it by just trying it out. I have characters on harb, TEH, and shadowlands. Anyone who wants to try it, please pm me.

Edited May 29, 2016 by sithBracer

I'm sorry that you don't understand what an obvious hyperbole is, but where in my post was anything hyperaggressive?

 

I looked at the picture it says you were lifted after decoy, it doesn't say you were stunned.

 

EDIT-one thing I should add though, so far the stun was only blocked against mercs. I haven't tried (or seen it happen) against a commando.

 

For something to be hyperbole people have to believe you are informed enough to know better, it's not good enough for it to be hyperbole in your own mind.

 

So I posted a correction of your post.

 

The excitement and negativity you replied with including trying to talk down actual facts by spinning out scenarios and making skill claims is the hyperagressive attitude I refer to. You were compelled to reply and try to score points because you felt it was personal when actually it's all in your mind.

 

 

Now onto something productive, how to read Starparse screens of the combat log.

 

Now with crayons.

 

On commando: http://s33.postimg.org/5go6haisv/tmp.png

 

Green ^ means the ability is applied.

Red v means the ability falls off.

Abs column lists the value of absorbed damage.

 

And then on merc: http://s33.postimg.org/wv6ix31rj/tmp2.png

 

This time the maurauder uses his mez as well but ofc that is broken by the choke damage, I'm still stunned til choke wears off.

 

The big mystery of why you don't see Decoy being applied is because combat logs only get written in combat so when I tell someone to stun me when I pop Decoy it has already been used and the log starts from them stunning me.

 

So to wrap up, Decoy does nothing besides block 5 hits of single target damage and gives no protection from controls, stuns, physics, dots or aoe which Shroud does.

 

Being on imp or rep has no effect on this.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Gyronamics

On commando: http://s33.postimg.org/5go6haisv/tmp.png

 

Green ^ means the ability is applied.

Red v means the ability falls off.

Abs column lists the value of absorbed damage.

 

And then on merc: http://s33.postimg.org/wv6ix31rj/tmp2.png

 

This time the maurauder uses his mez as well but ofc that is broken by the choke damage, I'm still stunned til choke wears off.

 

The big mystery of why you don't see Decoy being applied is because combat logs only get written in combat so when I tell someone to stun me when I pop Decoy it has already been used and the log starts from them stunning me.

 

So to wrap up, Decoy does nothing besides block 5 hits of single target damage and gives no protection from controls, stuns, physics, dots or aoe which Shroud does.

 

Being on imp or rep has no effect on this.

 

that was fun to read. I do feel those parse things need a decoder ring sometimes. (I was wondering why no decoy ^ as well)

On commando: http://s33.postimg.org/5go6haisv/tmp.png

 

Green ^ means the ability is applied.

Red v means the ability falls off.

Abs column lists the value of absorbed damage.

 

And then on merc: http://s33.postimg.org/wv6ix31rj/tmp2.png

 

This time the maurauder uses his mez as well but ofc that is broken by the choke damage, I'm still stunned til choke wears off.

 

The big mystery of why you don't see Decoy being applied is because combat logs only get written in combat so when I tell someone to stun me when I pop Decoy it has already been used and the log starts from them stunning me.

 

So to wrap up, Decoy does nothing besides block 5 hits of single target damage and gives no protection from controls, stuns, physics, dots or aoe which Shroud does.

 

Being on imp or rep has no effect on this.

 

Alright, can't deny the numbers. Do you have any logs of electrocute? I'll just chalk up the stuff that happened to me as either a glitch or the enemy broke really quickly and it didn't render on my side (although his resolve didn't go up any of those times ... ). If anyone still wants to try it out, I have characters on harb, TEH and shadowlands.

Edited May 29, 2016 by sithBracer

I have been playing jugg for the past few months and decided to change it up. I asked around and wanted to play a class that was challenging in PvP. I decided to go with merc, because I heard they have a hard time in PvP. People informed me they have terrible defenses, but after playing for a little over a week on my 65 merc, I do not understand why they say this? I have not done much ranked yet but have done a few matches. I am 4-1 rn. I am still trying to learn the class better but I am able to easily win 1v2's on my merc, I even once won a 1v3.

 

With utilities that grant an extra 5% dmg reduction, reduces the CD of energy shield by 3secs every 1.5secs (if I'm not mistaken), another 2 utilities which can make you immune to interrupts, and more. Plus the class abilities such as energy shield which reduces dmg reduction by 25%, or chaff flare with can stop 5 yellow attacks (if I'm not mistaken again :), hydrolic override, and more, why do people say merc/mando sucks in pvp?

 

Btw, i have played for arsenal and innovative ordnance merc and find both to be good.

 

Mercs are fine in regs. Damn hard in ranked, especially without a good healer. But they can be a wreaking ball in regs in the right hands. Most people just can't play the class well, so they get owned.

If people PVP from lvl 10-65 when double XP isn't on they should be pretty proficient on the the class as you learn all the basics and tactics as you lvl.

Those who PVE and then jump into PVP with Mercs will probably get owned hard. PVE is completely useless for learn this and other classes. As someone else mentioned all you need is sweeping blisters and death from above to lvl.

PVE is now so easy that people have no idea about most class abilities or uses in PVP.

My conclusion is if you want to PVP you should start in the early teens and PVP constantly inbetween quests. Stay permanently queued (pop times can be long anyway). This way you learn the class properly.

But you'll notice I say without double XP. I did lvl 15-19 in 10mins of PVP. I handed in the daily and weekly when I entered the match and by the time I'd finished it I'd hit lvl 19 as I completed achievements in the match.

I wish we had the option to turn double XP off, but we don't. I'd suggest anyone who really wants to know a class and take their time in PVP, to wait till it's over.