I'm curious why Mara/Sent is the only AC with no combat heal? It seems that all AC's have an ability that will return some degree of health by either attacking with it active or being attacked...etc.

Mara/Sent has to invest a point in tier 3 to get an extremely weak combat heal attached to a long CD ability which seems a bit harsh.

I'm not saying Sent/Mara should have the Jugg version (Which is crazy strong) but a combat heal that is balanced for the AC...probably more similar to the Assassin/Shadow Combat heal...

Anyways I was curious what the Mara/Sent players thought about this. I rolled up a Sent from level 1 to 65 recently and have begun PvP (Fully auged 208 PvP gear already) and although it plays well it does seem a bit weak in the survival department.

Watchman does have self heals which usually come to about 10% of damage done.

Ok I was aware Watchman has self heals based off their burn DoT damage, most folks are. The topic is for the AC of Sent/Mara as a whole not just Anni/Watchman. The discussion about how long it takes to apply the DoTs to receive equal returns to some of the in combat heals is an entirely different topic.

Madness Sorc has Dot heal returns and some of the best off heals in the game....their entire AC was not penalized for one spec having health returning DoTs.

That said thanks for the input.

I'm curious why Mara/Sent is the only AC with no combat heal? It seems that all AC's have an ability that will return some degree of health by either attacking with it active or being attacked...etc.

 

Mara/Sent has to invest a point in tier 3 to get an extremely weak combat heal attached to a long CD ability which seems a bit harsh.

 

I'm not saying Sent/Mara should have the Jugg version (Which is crazy strong) but a combat heal that is balanced for the AC...probably more similar to the Assassin/Shadow Combat heal...

 

Anyways I was curious what the Mara/Sent players thought about this. I rolled up a Sent from level 1 to 65 recently and have begun PvP (Fully auged 208 PvP gear already) and although it plays well it does seem a bit weak in the survival department.

mara are not the only class without a self heal. the other damage only class (sniper) also has no self healing except for a pathetically useless utility in the first tier (similar to anni's self heal but 3X weaker).

as to survivability, i think maybe you don't know how good you have it. mara survivability is better than most classes already and when you combine that with their excellent damage, maras are in a good place right now, imo.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=873934

Have a look.

you can' get everything either.

Those classes do not have an ability that nukes melee and ranged accuracy for 6 seconds, they do not have cloak of pain, which will provide under many circumstances extra damage while giving you a DR 2nd only to the tank specs, and they do not have a general 99% damage reduction with no drawback.

Thats in addition to a 45s cooldown on an in-fight stealth (for pvp) that can be specced to purge, and a 30s massive mobility boost, that is also an utility that will boost your teamates around, and can be specced to break roots and snare on EVERYONE affected.

marauders are already a class with a lot of very nice DCDs, so which one would you sacrifice for a 15% self heal every 2 minutes?

mara are not the only class without a self heal. the other damage only class (sniper) also has no self healing except for a pathetically useless utility in the first tier (similar to anni's self heal but 3X weaker).

 

as to survivability, i think maybe you don't know how good you have it. mara survivability is better than most classes already and when you combine that with their excellent damage, maras are in a good place right now, imo.

-

Please forgive the many spelling errors that are about to ensue

I agree with you on all accounts. A pure dps class capable of putting up some of the highest numbers in the game has to have a trade off. Ya can't have everything.

While Maras [cept anni] share the lack of self heals with the Sniper, the only other pure dps class, I do find the survivability of Snipers in many instances better than Marauders. [in pvp they can be really hard to kill, they have many tools that help them to keep people from getting near them. And when they do get near them they have other defensive measures.

There is however a mitigating factor here that sets marauders apart from Snipers. Marauders are damage magnets. As melee they most always be in the thick in the fight. They share the same proximity as tanks most of them [although not in front]. Additonally, as we all know there are many instances wherein raid mechanics can be very melee unfriendly. Snipers most oftem far away from the actual fight and thus have considerably less damage coming their way [exceptions of course]. Additionaly, they tend to have better uptime than melee.

Lack of self heals is something that affect marauders most acutely in pvp. Clearly it makes pvping on a marauder much more difficult than most of the other classes that do have self-heals. DCDs just dont really cut it for marauders in pvp, there is just way to much damage going around. Most of the time your fighting an opponent and are are also being aoed from kingdom come from ranged essentually making it than they are taking damage from multiple enemies, while only being able to attack the one in your face.

I do feel marauders need some additional survivabilty in pvp [and only in pvp]. Marauders arent well suited for PVP, and its just the way it is. Without a pocket healer, there is little hope of not getting your *** handed to you many times through out the course of a WZ, generally speaking.

Giving all Marauders and Snipers self-heals would undoubtedly bring the nerf hammer down on their damage output.

Personally, if I had to make a trade off, I prefer having the damage over the survivability.

As to pve, Marauders can really shine. We are in a good place and I'd like to keep it that way. We suffered for a long time [3.0 being the worst].

Marauders aren't an easy class to play, they do have a higher skill cap, yet even stil, given the current status quo in pve, Marauders need no buffing. At least right now.

Additonally, as we all know there are many instances wherein raid mechanics can be very melee unfriendly. Snipers most oftem far away from the actual fight and thus have considerably less damage coming their way [exceptions of course]. Additionaly, they tend to have better uptime than melee.

While this is mostly true, no dps should ever be wasting gcds for healing in raids. Leave the healing to the healers. Your job is to do dmg.

Now let's move to

DCDs just dont really cut it for marauders in pvp, there is just way to much damage going around. Most of the time your fighting an opponent and are are also being aoed from kingdom come from ranged essentually making it than they are taking damage from multiple enemies, while only being able to attack the one in your face.

This is simply not true. The only time when self-heals is better than plain damage resistance is when the incoming damage is too small - and that is not when you're taking damage from multiple enemies, that is 1v1. In every other case both CoP and Saber Ward both outperform by a large margin any self-healing you could get. Add to that UR and force camo. Even if we assume a H2F self heal on a 30s cd(which would be ridiculous but that's just a thought experiment) it will still be worse than CoP only( i'm not counting any other DCD) if the DtPS is >= 11k, which is pretty standard if 3 not very good or 2 good dps beat at you at the same time.

Any substantial self-heal mara can get on top of the already very good DCD would just make the class too op and result in a heavy nerf.

-

-snip-.

Maras have some of the best DCDs in the game, especially for pvp.

I prefer the escapes and DCDs we have now over any self heals.

If you are dying this many times in Regs then you need to reevaluate your playstyle and adapt because no amount of self heals can save a Mara from 3v1 focus like our DCDs can.

While this is mostly true, no dps should ever be wasting gcds for healing in raids. Leave the healing to the healers. Your job is to do dmg.

 

Now let's move to

 

This is simply not true. The only time when self-heals is better than plain damage resistance is when the incoming damage is too small - and that is not when you're taking damage from multiple enemies, that is 1v1. In every other case both CoP and Saber Ward both outperform by a large margin any self-healing you could get. Add to that UR and force camo. Even if we assume a H2F self heal on a 30s cd(which would be ridiculous but that's just a thought experiment) it will still be worse than CoP only( i'm not counting any other DCD) if the DtPS is >= 11k, which is pretty standard if 3 not very good or 2 good dps beat at you at the same time.

 

Any substantial self-heal mara can get on top of the already very good DCD would just make the class too op and result in a heavy nerf.

I'm not exactly sure why you replyed to my post the way you did, as I'm in full agreement. I never said self-heals would be better than DCDs or that I think Maras should get self heals. If you reread my post you will find that I expressly stated that I dont think maras should get self heals because it would result in a nerf and that Id rather have the damage over the surivivability.

Maras serve one purpose and one purpose only, to destroy.

Their DCDs are very good for PVE but they do not cut it in PVP. Thats not to say I think Maras should have self heals in PVP, because I dont think that. But given that every other class save sniper has some form of self-healing in addition to their own DCDs, I do think maras need something to help with survivability in PVP only.

My only point of contention with regard to Mara DCDs was that Force Camo is virtually useless as a DCD in all practicality for Maras and is equally useless as a threat drop in PVE. The invisibility aspect is a novelty at best. While it may have some minor use in PVP, its much to short to have much impact unless one uses a utility point to grant it two extra seconds. With 6 seconds you may just be able to get away from an opponent to a hiding place, but most of the time that just delays the inevitable because you can't do anything to lick your wounds other than pop a medpac which you could do during combat anyways. And if you have already done that, unless your sneaking to a healer [who cant see you either] your still gonna be at deaths door. Although it can deprive some ******e or rival the kill.

I'm not exactly sure why you replyed to my post the way you did, as I'm in full agreement.

That's easy - i wasn't reading very carefully and thought that you were supporting the OP Sorry about that.

Maras have some of the best DCDs in the game, especially for pvp.

I prefer the escapes and DCDs we have now over any self heals.

 

If you are dying this many times in Regs then you need to reevaluate your playstyle and adapt because no amount of self heals can save a Mara from 3v1 focus like our DCDs can.

Once again, I never advocated Maras getting self heals. I stated the exact opposite, if you reread my post you will see that.

That said, generally speaking, maras suck in PVP. Playstyle, adaption be damned. Without a pocket healer your dcds will not save you for very long with all the aoe that you are constantly being subjected to while you are engaged in melee combat with another opponent. One on one, yeah, they can do the trick, but one on one in a warzone is uncommon. Having a Gaurdian wack away at you while his ******e commando friend is aoeing the crap where you're fighting, thats not a tenable scenario for very long even with DCDs. Given the cool down on some of them, most of the time you are going to be without any DCD benefits given the length of an average warzone and that is where self-heals do prove to be superior because they come around alot quicker than the cooldowns of our most effective DCDs [saber Ward, Undying Rage].

It's not an issue of skill, its an issue purely of circumstance [well skill does play some part, but its not a stand alone aspect]. A mara without a healer near by IS going to bite it frequently. Additionally,the sheer amount of stuns, mezzes, and slows being constantly thrown around ensures there will be many instances where you are getting attacked and are simply unable to use a DCD [unless you use a utility point to be able to use CoP while stunned but this would be a wasteful use of a point]. Maras have one CC blocker, and even if a utility point is spent for a second [and only] CC blocker, its completely irrelivant because the second you break that cc your just gonna get stunned all over again three seconds later a good amount of the time. There are exceptions of course, but by and large, as a mara you can be relatively certain that your going to be CCed many more times than you have cc blockers to deal with. Of course there is the option of specing Fury for pvping, their anti-cc benefits are huge and makes them extremely viable in PVP, but lets face it all due respect, their damage sucks.

WZs are very circumstantial and that cuts both ways, sometimes its in your favor, sometimes its not. i do agree, Maras can drop some serious damage and there has to be a trade off cuz u cant have everything. But when a Jugg is doing more damage than you as a tank, you cant blame some of the shortcomings maras face on merely being melee. Juggs and assys are melee too, but they have self-heals and its telling.

Maras should never get self-healing. It just goes against the grain for them in feel. What the answer is for PVP I really dont know. Ive played a Carnage Marauder the entire time ive been in SWTOR over the 3 years and change, I play nothing else. I'm a HM Progression raider and Ive been doing PVP for about the last 6 months with the same Carnage Marauder. I'm not saying that Marauders are unplayable in PVP. Skill definately plays a large part in things. I consider myself quite skilled at playing the carnage marauder, and im one of the highest parsing marauders in the game [parsley], that said, half the time i get my *** handed to me repeatedly. Sometimes I do quite well, other times, I die frequently. The stealth classes will rip a Marauders *** apart, they just stun *** you to death, Snipers have a field day with Marauders [cant leap to em and if u get near em, they have lots of nasty little things to send you packing], Sorcs take about 15 minutes to kill, Skank Tank Juggs outclass a mara across the board. And while Snipers may not have self-heals, they are also a ranged class and can to a good degree avoid alot of the damage melee are subjected to.

If any doubt remains, its relatively easy to tell somethings up with Maras in PVP, if you count the amount of them you see in WZ compared to other classes. Maras are by far the most unrepresented class in pvp. There are some, yeah, its not uncommon to see one, but you see alot less of them than all the other classes.

Viable in PVP? Yes. Well suited for it? Not so much.

Once again, I never advocated Maras getting self heals. I stated the exact opposite, if you reread my post you will see that.

 

That said, generally speaking, maras suck in PVP. Playstyle, adaption be damned. Without a pocket healer your dcds will not save you for very long with all the aoe that you are constantly being subjected to while you are engaged in melee combat with another opponent. One on one, yeah, they can do the trick, but one on one in a warzone is uncommon. Having a Gaurdian wack away at you while his ******e commando friend is aoeing the crap where you're fighting, thats not a tenable scenario for very long even with DCDs. Given the cool down on some of them, most of the time you are going to be without any DCD benefits given the length of an average warzone and that is where self-heals do prove to be superior because they come around alot quicker than the cooldowns of our most effective DCDs [saber Ward, Undying Rage].

 

Maras do just fine in pvp, the problem is the skill barrier.

It's much easier to be terrible at mara than say a Jugg or PT.

Everything is situational, the camo works perfectly fine as an escape. 6 seconds should be enough time to LoS then pred to a healing buff.

I run Carnage which everyone keeps whining about, yet I have never had any big issues with getting stunlocked during my gore window, outside of facing 3/4 Ops that is.

I see a lot of maras, but rarely do any of them break 1k DPS, so it's not really the class that is the issue here it's the player.

My utilities are:

Skillful: Unflinching Determination, Brazen, Overwhelm

Masterful: Relentless, Interceptor

Heroic: Unbound, Expunging Camouflage

And it works for me, especially Unflinching Determination and Expunging Camouflage since Sorcs and Sins are so stun happy.

In your scenario, if the Guardian is on you while the Mando is either stun them and pred out, or choke one to disable him for a bit while you burst down the other, preferably the Mando. I have done it several times without any issues.

Choke lasts 4 seconds, you also have Intimidating Roar.

Gotta agree on the Force Camo, it doesn't do much except delay the inevitable because it does not take you out of combat unlike the SIn/Shadow version; and its too short. 12 secs would be good. But if we get a self heal then they gon nerf the damage and thats never a good thing

Force Camo is there to make the others switch the focus off you, and cleanse you if you picked the utility.

It's not supposed to save you if you are against 3 other players alone.

Back in the day I suggested that Arsenal Merc needed some survival buffs and the biggest opposition for it were Mercs....It's strange how that happens.

That said I was just curious...I have A PT, Merc, Jugg, Sorc, Op, Shadow, all fully Auged PVP 208 and I find Sentinel to be great at initiating fights but short on staying power for a melee class....But just my opinion.

Back in the day I suggested that Arsenal Merc needed some survival buffs and the biggest opposition for it were Mercs....It's strange how that happens.

 

That said I was just curious...I have A PT, Merc, Jugg, Sorc, Op, Shadow, all fully Auged PVP 208 and I find Sentinel to be great at initiating fights but short on staying power for a melee class....But just my opinion.

It depends on the class for me.

I have a hard time against Ops and certain mercs in 8v8s, but I can tunnel Sorcs no problem.

A lot of that comes from pre resource nerf, I stuck to them and hate f*cked them for the entire match.

It's not an issue of skill

it is an issue of skill. that is what everybody in the post is trying to tell you. in the current meta, mara is near the top because of it's excellent damage and above average defensive cooldowns. you not being able to make it perform well, is not a problem with the class.

If any doubt remains, its relatively easy to tell somethings up with Maras in PVP, if you count the amount of them you see in WZ compared to other classes. Maras are by far the most unrepresented class in pvp. There are some, yeah, its not uncommon to see one, but you see alot less of them than all the other classes.

not sure what server you are on, but on the harbinger, that is absolutely not true. maras are well represented.

Maras do just fine in pvp, the problem is the skill barrier.

It's much easier to be terrible at mara than say a Jugg or PT.

Everything is situational, the camo works perfectly fine as an escape. 6 seconds should be enough time to LoS then pred to a healing buff.

I run Carnage which everyone keeps whining about, yet I have never had any big issues with getting stunlocked during my gore window, outside of facing 3/4 Ops that is.

I see a lot of maras, but rarely do any of them break 1k DPS, so it's not really the class that is the issue here it's the player.

 

My utilities are:

Skillful: Unflinching Determination, Brazen, Overwhelm

Masterful: Relentless, Interceptor

Heroic: Unbound, Expunging Camouflage

 

And it works for me, especially Unflinching Determination and Expunging Camouflage since Sorcs and Sins are so stun happy.

 

 

In your scenario, if the Guardian is on you while the Mando is either stun them and pred out, or choke one to disable him for a bit while you burst down the other, preferably the Mando. I have done it several times without any issues.

Choke lasts 4 seconds, you also have Intimidating Roar.

Respectfully, and for the record, im not trying to be argumentitive, I think perhaps you are oversimplyfing things abit. Yes, that all seems well and good but in the thick of things, and things move fast in a WZ, let's remember that at best you are going to have one stun blocker and one anti movement inhibiting breaker [on a thirty second CD assuming you spent the utitility point and you havent used it yet and it's not on CD]. The reality is, yes, he hard stuns, ya use stun blocker, he slows you ya use Pred, but now that you shot your preverbial load, what happens when in the very next second, he stuns you again? Or he uses the slow attack that he just used and you used pred to over come? Answer is, your stunned and you're slowed. Not only can this happen, this WILL happen often and repeatedly. Marauders in particular are easy prey for these types of attacks and strategies.

Many of the other classes have alot more stuns/slows that you can hope to have counters for. The worst offenders, and to a sickening level are Assassins/Shadows and Operative/Scoundrels. What's more, they know it. An Operative/Scoundrel who knows their class can literally stun/slow/Kite you indefinately.

Marauders cannot guard nodes because if a Assassin or Operative come along they can cap that node and you can't stop them if you are within 10 meters of the node itself. They will simply stun/mezz you and cap while you are in la la land. You break one, they apply another and still have a few more to spare.

With regard to your suggestion that in the scenario, "if the Guardian is on you while the Mando is either stun them and pred out, or choke one to disable him for a bit while you burst down the other, preferably the Mando. I have done it several times without any issues.

Choke lasts 4 seconds, you also have Intimidating Roar.", this assumes you have any idea who is carpet bombing you while you are fighting Joe Guardian. Furthermore, it is by no means uncommon that you are being carpet bombed from more than one source. Force choke can be a very effective tool, but using it to "get away" is in all hontesty a DPS loss. We have one hard stun that can be overcome with a CC breaker, and than we're done until the CD runs it course. A good amount of the time, people will break your force choke, Guardians/Juggs in particular.

The reality is, and mirrors real life in this regard, as was pointed out by another posted, facing mutliple opponents at the same time, there isnt much you can do as a Marauder. Juggs and Sorcs are much better equiped to take on multiple attacks, and pretty much the only time an Assassin or Operative finds themselves facing multiple attackers are if they allow it or they have alot on CD. They can simple sneak out, H2F and come back. A marauder at best and this is pretty much only if they wasted the point to get the 2 extra seconds on Force camo, is sneak away is there is something they can get behind thats close enough with the time aloted and either pop a medpac [which they could do without sneaking away anyways] and heal themselves for 1/7th of their health or sneak away and hide behind something until enough time has passed and they are "out of combat" and can heal themselves normally. The later of which isn't doing anyone any good, and if anything is probably hurting your group because theyre down a man for that duration. Its better to just do as much damage as possible before you die and than just respawn, youll get back in the action quicker that way anyways.

I'm not suggesting Marauders can't do decently in WZ. As a Carnage Marauder there are many instances where in fact I do rather well. That said, however, most of the time, you will be outclassed in th damage department [once in a while i come in first or in the top 3], but most of the time, it's the Sorcs, the Snipers, Mercs and Assys that top the boards and alot of the time skank tanks will out damage you.

I do agree with you that it is easier to be less accomplished as a Mara than as a Jugg or PT, I think everyone is pretty much in agreement that Marauders have a higher skill set necessary to be good at it and it is easier to do well with a Jugg or a PT.

How it is that you don't find yourself being stunned/slowed with any frequency baffles me. Stun f-ed to death is something I see alot of Marauders [ and occasionlly even other classes] complain about.

The most you will generally ever see is a Marauder doing between 1k-1.5k damage.

Thankfully, as a progression raider, PVP is something I do on the side to have some fun, and raid wise, skilled Marauders are topping the damage boards.

The level of AOE in PVP is rediculous. If you are fighting a Jugg, and you are getting pelted by a sniper and being AOED at the same time by a Merc, what the hell can you possibly do about it realistically except run and hide? And any Mara who does that should turn in his lightsabers and find a different profession. - Going out in a blaze of Glory should be the asiperation of all Marauders. Whether you live or you die is irrelivant, all that matters is how much damage you do. And sadly, given all of the issues expressed about some of the shortcomings faced by many MArauders in PVP, much of the time, its not all that impressive compared to many other classes.

If you are finding that you are commonly beating Snipers, Arsenal Mercs and Sorcs, even Assassins sometimes, in the damage department, please share the wealth. Because near as I can tell that is anything but the norm much of the time.

I'm not sure what the answer here is, but I can at least say this for my part - Marauders shouldn't get self heals. As useful and helpful as that may be, its begging for a nerf, and I'd rather keep the damage for PVE than the added survivability in PVP. If there is to be a compromise in this department, I think it would come better in the form of addressing it thru DCDs. Yes, we have some very decent DCDs [Force Camo being the worst of them, probably in the entire game for all classes] and they are very helpful in PVE. In and of themselves, without any self-healing abilities in PVP, they simply don't cut it IMO.

Until such a time as PVE and PVP are handled seperately from one another, I don't think Marauders will ever be in "a good place" in PVP like they are right now in PVE.

But that don't mean we can't die gloriously on the field of battle, taking as many of our enemies screaming to hell with us on the way down.

Make mine with two lightsabers.

it is an issue of skill. that is what everybody in the post is trying to tell you. in the current meta, mara is near the top because of it's excellent damage and above average defensive cooldowns. you not being able to make it perform well, is not a problem with the class.

 

 

 

not sure what server you are on, but on the harbinger, that is absolutely not true. maras are well represented.

Well, in all humility, I do extremely well in PVE and I'm ranked high on Parsley, in the Top 3 in many cases, and I don't think there would be many people who have seen me perform in live raids that would say I wasn't a skilled Marauder. However, I cannot claim that in PVP.

When I made reference to "not being an issue of skill", I meant that in the sence that, some of the other classes that are generally preforming better on average than Marauders, they are not doing so simply because they have better skill than that of a Marauder. Assassins and Sorcs and skank tanks do better, not because of skill in all cases, they do better because they are inherently better suited to the pvp enviorment and the classes themselves provide them with more tools to do better than Marauders have in the PVP enviorment. Thats why they are called FOTM classes. FOTM classes aren't called that for any other reason other than the fact that the class itself comes with more tools that aid them in the PVP enviroment. There is a reason you don't find many "skank tanks" in progression raiding but they are everywhere in PVP. Because they inherently come with certain tools that aid in preformance in the pvp enviornment.

Im on the shadowlands server, and I can tell you that there are about three or four Marauders total that I know of that tend to do well in regs. That said however, their doing well is a relative statement. They're still not breaking 2k 99 percent of the time. The range is generally no higher than 1.5-1.6k. I myself only exceeded 2k on one occassion and that was soley because I had the best damn healer in the game as a pocket healer. I have seen other Marauders break 2k only one or two times as well. Sorcs, Snipers, Assassins, Arsenal Mercs break two 2k commonly. Even some PTs on occassion.

Marauders DPS superiority in the current meta is solely in PVE. Everyone once is a while you will see a Marauder come in first place in a WZ, I myself have done so on occassion, but thats not the norm, thats the exception. At least of the Shadowlands. The classes perform idenitcally no matter what server you play on and so I can't imagine why this state would be representated any differently on Harbinger.

Should it be that someone stated that "well there are more skilled players on server X than server Y" In addtion to calling that person an A-hole I'd call BS on them and tell them to provide evidence of that "fact" via links to parses and screenshots of WZ results.

There will always be a few rare individuals who seem to defy/exceed the norms of their respective classes. But using those rare birds as an argument is kinda like saying most people are stupid because genius's do better on tests.

In closing, opinions will vary on the subject, and thats fine, thats what these forums are for, different points of view, different experiences, and sharing different ideas. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, of course.

Except in one area, and that is with regard to pubs.

All pubs must die. =]

Please excuse the many spelling errors. I'm in dire need of hooked on phonics.

Force Camo is there to make the others switch the focus off you, and cleanse you if you picked the utility.

It's not supposed to save you if you are against 3 other players alone.

I totally agree. How could I not? After all its a useless DCD. I guess what I'm really trying to say about Force Camo is that I don't think the term defensive cool down should be applied to something that really only serves to only allow you to run and hide. When you "defend" yourself, you're fighting. When you run and hide you're retreating. Just ask the French =p

I think you are way understating Marauders in PvP. Our defensives are some of the best in the entire game, it's just that you should take care to use them proactively, because you indeed don't have a way to regenerate your health after it's gone. That being said I'd take Cloak of Pain over something liked Enraged Defense any day, especially because selfhealing scales poorly against multiple opponents, whereas damage reduction does not. And Force Camouflage is quite useful for getting to a healing node (the utility increasing it's duration and movement speed bonus can be very valuable in warzones, but is generally mediocre in arenas), or simply to get people to switch of you.

Sure, you won't last very long when people are focusing you, but no dps class does, nor should they.

I totally agree. How could I not? After all its a useless DCD. I guess what I'm really trying to say about Force Camo is that I don't think the term defensive cool down should be applied to something that really only serves to only allow you to run and hide. When you "defend" yourself, you're fighting. When you run and hide you're retreating. Just ask the French =p

You are using it wrong. It's not a DCD it's an escape, a way to force the enemy to swap targets for a while.

A Mara is not a Jugg, you are playing the class wrong. A lot of people do. They rush into the thick of things thinking that they are indestructible, that is not where our power comes from. We are glass cannons. We hit hard and fast, and have to learn how to lay back and let the Jugs handing the group while we pick the stragglers off one by one.

If you get focus escape.

This post is meant to address both walls of text in the previous page.

I really, really hate saying L2P because it's a dismissive non argument, but in this case it fits.

Hell, come to BC or TEH and we will queue together one one of my maras (of which I have too many).

You are using it wrong. It's not a DCD it's an escape, a way to force the enemy to swap targets for a while.

A Mara is not a Jugg, you are playing the class wrong. A lot of people do. They rush into the thick of things thinking that they are indestructible, that is not where our power comes from. We are glass cannons. We hit hard and fast, and have to learn how to lay back and let the Jugs handing the group while we pick the stragglers off one by one.

If you get focus escape.

 

This post is meant to address both walls of text in the previous page.

I really, really hate saying L2P because it's a dismissive non argument, but in this case it fits.

Hell, come to BC or TEH and we will queue together one one of my maras (of which I have too many).

I wish people would learn to read before responding to a persons post. The last thing I need is anyone telling me how to "play the class". My ranking on parsley alone should buy me some small measure of credit for knowing a thing or two about playing a carnage marauder. Your point is entirely superfluous in the fact that ALL I am saying, and in essence you're agreeing with me which makes it all the more ridiculous, is that Force Camouflage is a terrible DCD. And you response is to tell me I'm wrong by agreeing with me?

Here's the facts, like it not, and it's not open to interpretation. Force Camouflage is considered a DCD. Whether or not is useful as such is secondary to the fact that it is technically a DCD. [Yes, you can add some movement rate increase to it with utility points as well as a cleanse, but in essence, on it's own, its base use is to provide some measure of protection from certain types of damage] I point out that it is a terrible DCD because it cannot realistically function as a DCD, and you decide to get on a soap and tell me I'm wrong for using it as a DCD when i just finished making the point that it can't be used as a DCD effectively. L2P? How about learning to read before you get all high and mighty and try to make it out like you have to teach someone about "how to play a Mara".

Maras aren't Juggs?? Really?? What an amazing discovery you have made. Thank the Gods you came along to inform all us "sh*ters" that Marauders can't be played like Juggs and can't just jump into large swaths of enemies like we're indestructible. Marauders are glass cannons? I've never heard that before. And here I thought Marauders were the tankiest of tanks.

Thank you for coming along and teaching us "plebs" how woefully wrong 'a lot of us" play the class. Thank you for offering to let me "ride along" with one of your maras to school me. [bergen County? lol A lot of heavy names from that server.] Maybe after that you can teach me how to be an end game hm/nim progression raider while your at it, as I've only been doing it for three years and Marauder is the only class I have ever played so I'm sure you could show me the ropes of the class.

Try using Force Camo to escape being "focused" by an Operation Boss, or as some of us plebs like to call it, Agroing. See how long he stops attacking while your still invisible and after. Than tell me how much of an escape it is.

Even in PVP its use as an escape is limited and is entirely dependent on the surroundings. Sometimes it might be enough to get away, sometimes it wont be, depends on how far you are from a convenient hiding place when you need it. Even if you get away, there's no heal to full for maras. So unless you plan on hiding out until your "out of combat" which can take 30 seconds, 45 seconds, or more, your still gonna be on deaths door if you come out of hiding. Maras aren't Juggs, and they also aren't Assassins. You wanna hide while the rest of your team is fighting down a man until its safe, you might be better off playing an Assassin. You die, you die, big deal, you'll respawn in 5 seconds anyways. Get back in the fight and do your job. That being, ya know, doing damage, ergo, not hiding until its safe and waiting til you drop out of combat to heal.

Read a persons post before you respond. Common friggen decency before you go on and try to belittle someone when you don't even know the context of what your replying too. if my post is too long for you to read the whole thing before you decide you know its total content and context, than maybe hold back and the holier than thou speeches.

What "fits in this case" is [to quote you], your an pretentious ***, who thinks he knows more than people whom he has no idea about.

I can learn from Hayete, I can learn From Kat, I can learn from Bant.

You? Not so much.

L2P? Learn to read.

I think you are way understating Marauders in PvP. Our defensives are some of the best in the entire game, it's just that you should take care to use them proactively, because you indeed don't have a way to regenerate your health after it's gone. That being said I'd take Cloak of Pain over something liked Enraged Defense any day, especially because selfhealing scales poorly against multiple opponents, whereas damage reduction does not. And Force Camouflage is quite useful for getting to a healing node (the utility increasing it's duration and movement speed bonus can be very valuable in warzones, but is generally mediocre in arenas), or simply to get people to switch of you.

Sure, you won't last very long when people are focusing you, but no dps class does, nor should they.

Cloak of Pain is quite possibly the best dcd in the game, certainly at least one of them, they mere fact that it can refresh its duration is immensily strong. I do agree, Marauders have some really good DCDS. My only thought on the matter with regard to PVP is, while self-healing may not scale well against multiple opponents, it does allow you to not be entirely dependent on a great deal of your longevity on others. When your down to 1/4th of your health with no way of replenishing it, short of Undying Rage, a DCD is not really gonna save you when the next enemy with full health comes along and puts his sights on you.

Wherein there are healing nodes, they are far from dependable, and an enemy who doesn't even need a health boost will often put themselves into it to make sure you can't use it, knowing full well it is the only measure of "healing" a marauder will get absent a healer. It is a very common [and frustraiting tactic heh ]. Additionally , there are large areas in WZs that there are no healing nodes close enough to be usable wherein combat is commonly taking place.

Everyone knows Maras have no self-healing [And while Anni technically does, it is on such a small scale as to be vastly outclassed by any other classes self-healing and is dependent on doing damage and is not something one can replenish their health with really], and their tell-tale two sabers you can see from a mile away.

I'm not sure what the answer is here, but, i don't think it should come in the form of Marauders [or snipers] getting self-heals, thats the price you pay for being a pure-dps class. But I do think there should be something to help their survivability to a small degree in PVP only.