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The "My Commander Won't Go Back To A Follower" Argument Debunked


Ylliarus

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I find crafting utterly borring.

I don't like pvp and i'd be absolutely useless in a PvP match anyways with my great internet connection, when i can only react when i'm already dead.

And i don't really care about the many alts i already have.

 

Not meaning to be disrespectful of course as what I am about to say in no way shape or form suggests that your opinion is worth less, but this kind of signifies to me you are not part of the majority of players. Because the majority of players do craft, they do pvp and raid. It's why I have the feeling that Bioware, with its current lack of resources, went and made the decision to appease the most amount of players they could.

 

But even amongst the players who play story only, as I said before, I am in a Discord server that focuses on Sith RP, in particular the Spheres of Influence of the Sith Empire. We have 200+ members and the general sentiment there is huge excitement for the return to Empire vs Republic and the potential to return to our factions. People generally say "I want a major devastating war between Empire and Republic". I haven't seen anyone there saying "I wanted to stay independent" or "I don't care about the Empire or Republic on my toons". Naturally that server doesn't speak for the entirety of the gaming populace, but neither do these forums.

 

Because often I will hear that people from the Sith RP Discord steer clear from the forums here and the people from the forums here again probs didn't even know there is an entire Discord server dedicated to the Empire's Spheres of Influence roleplay. In the end it's Bioware who has the numbers and seemingly their numbers suggest that going back to Empire vs Republic and abandoning the Alliance narrative step by step is more profitable than maintaining it.

Edited by Ylliarus
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The joke is the alliance wasn’t all that to begin with.

 

We had a small science dept, a small enclave, an underground supply dept, and small military wing. We had a small team of individuals and droids that made up a small strike team.

 

We briefly controlled the remnants of the eternal fleet that had fought many battles, finally destroyed by a lone zildrog version of the dreadstone. By the time we got the fleet, neither the republic or empire hesitated to raid Iokath.

 

At best, we was an underground resistance, with a strike team that accomplished the impossible. But at this moment, now that our location is known, we’re no more that Revan trying to escape the distruction of Taris.

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Honestly, I’ll live with the saboteur option because the devs clearly want to hold off on true faction switching until 6.0* and I can semi-justify that the best way to protect the Jedi enclave is to undermine the attackers (I’d much rather just outright defend them because I’m certain the mission structure for the Imps will be 90+% the same save for cut scenes and that probably means having to kill a bunch of Jedi red shirts in the process).

 

But if the saboteur storyline ends up with you ‘seeing the error of your ways’ and re-embracing your original faction (or worse, being locked out of joining the Republic because your sabotage efforts go unrecognized and only your perception of supporting the Empire matters) because the devs can’t actually deliver on that promise set up by Iokath and Nathema... I’m out. The idea that a character who started out a slave of the Sith Empire and went through the vanilla story and every expansion as a 100% lightside character (even redeeming the Sith spirits in your head in the process) and who sided with the Republic at every opportunity would be stuck on the side of the psychopaths is just too wildly out of character for the arc the devs themselves set up.

 

If faction swapping in 6.0 isn’t going to happen then I just wanna know one thing... “does the female Jedi Knight or Consular sound closer to the female Inquisitor if they dropped the accent?” Because I will absolutely reroll as a Pubside toon using that free “start at FE or ET” token I’ve had sitting around since at least 5.0 and just headcanon that they dropped the accent in order to better fit in with the Repubic. That makes more sense to me than having them stuck in the Sith Empire.

 

* I could buy that the Iokath Pub/Imp choice was just a one-off and doesn’t specifically suggest future faction switching, but doubling down on giving the option to reach out to either side after the Nathema Conspiracy (instead of writing it so your only option would be reaching out to your original faction) would have been an utter bonehead maneuver if they couldn’t truly deliver on a faction-swap.

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Not meaning to be disrespectful of course as what I am about to say in no way shape or form suggests that your opinion is worth less, but this kind of signifies to me you are not part of the majority of players. Because the majority of players do craft, they do pvp and raid. It's why I have the feeling that Bioware, with its current lack of resources, went and made the decision to appease the most amount of players they could.

 

But even amongst the players who play story only, as I said before, I am in a Discord server that focuses on Sith RP, in particular the Spheres of Influence of the Sith Empire. We have 200+ members and the general sentiment there is huge excitement for the return to Empire vs Republic and the potential to return to our factions. People generally say "I want a major devastating war between Empire and Republic". I haven't seen anyone there saying "I wanted to stay independent" or "I don't care about the Empire or Republic on my toons". Naturally that server doesn't speak for the entirety of the gaming populace, but neither do these forums.

 

Because often I will hear that people from the Sith RP Discord steer clear from the forums here and the people from the forums here again probs didn't even know there is an entire Discord server dedicated to the Empire's Spheres of Influence roleplay. In the end it's Bioware who has the numbers and seemingly their numbers suggest that going back to Empire vs Republic and abandoning the Alliance narrative step by step is more profitable than maintaining it.

 

Actually, given all of the ham-fisted ways they keep trying to force people to raid (throwing Ops at the end of story segments, not letting people drop the Iokath Op, putting mats in Ops only), I would say that most people don't do raids. The forum is full of people right now, many of whom are longtime players, who are very upset with the new mats being largely in raids. The devs even said they weren't going to bother with MM for the GftM Op, if not for one dev who wanted it.

 

As for PvP, there are also constant complaints that nobody is playing lower level PvP and that pops aren't plentiful for L 70. Many people here have said they've walked away from the companion in KOTFE that required PvP rather than doing the matches to get them.

 

So I don't really think it's fair to say someone who doesn't PvP or raid isn't the "majority." People have RP guilds; people really get into the story; people play Space Barbie; there are many, many ways to play this game without PvP and raids.

 

And with all due respect, if you are in a group that is all about a traditionalist Empire view, of course they want to get back to the factions. That group may be sizable, but again it isn't what every player or fan is into and doesn't represent a majority.

Edited by IoNonSoEVero
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And with all due respect, if you are in a group that is all about a traditionalist Empire view, of course they want to get back to the factions. That group may be sizable, but again it isn't what every player or fan is into and doesn't represent a majority.

 

That's only one group. You also have a sizeable group who have based themselves off of our Discord server and created something called "Republic Assemblies", which focuses on Repside RP. The sentiment there also seems to be that they want to go back to the Republic with their toons, albeit Roleplay and playing the game's story are 2 seperate things. Because you have the headcanon kind of RP I think you're doing and the RP where you take on the role of a random custom-made Sith Lord, Republic troopers, Imperial Citizen etc etc and play them out in stories that guilds create with their members.

 

Sure, there is also an entire contingent and Discord server that focuses on the neutral parties in the war, like smugglers, pirates, crime syndicates and businesses. As I said, I am not saying that one Discord server speaks for the entire playerbase.

 

Naturally that server doesn't speak for the entirety of the gaming populace, but neither do these forums.

 

Actually, given all of the ham-fisted ways they keep trying to force people to raid (throwing Ops at the end of story segments, not letting people drop the Iokath Op, putting mats in Ops only), I would say that most people don't do raids. The forum is full of people right now, many of whom are longtime players, who are very upset with the new mats being largely in raids. As for PvP, there are also constant complaints that nobody is playing lower level PvP and that pops aren't plentiful for L 70. Many people here have said they've walked away from the companion in KOTFE that required PvP rather than doing the matches to get them.

 

I don't mean this disrespectfully, but I think you have a bit of a biased view as to this. The game is full of people doing raids and saying "most people don't do raids" is a rather false statement. It's actually quite the opposite, most people do raids while a minority roleplays. Fleet is full with calls to form groups for raids and if you generally look at the game from inside the game, then you'll see most players do raids.

 

I am afraid you look too much to these forums for getting an image as to what players supposedly want. From what I have experienced and seen it's almost always the same handful of people that post here, while I hear a lot of players who daily play SWTOR steer clear from the forums because they're not too fond of what is happening here. From what I have observed, a majority of the playerbase seems to either be on the SWTOR reddit or simply not engage in any forum.

 

So I don't really think it's fair to say someone who doesn't PvP or raid isn't the "average player." People have RP guilds; people really get into the story; people play Space Barbie; there are many, many ways to play this game without PvP and raids.

 

The avarage player is the raider or pvp'er. Wasn't the RP community deathly afraid and convinced RP would die because majority of the players were PvE'ers and PvP'ers who they were convinced of would grief them once the servers merged? I remember the heated discussions very clearly.

 

Fact is, those who RP aren't in the majority of the playerbase, we see that clearly over at Darth Malgus and I bet it's a thing across other servers as well. I am not saying they're insignificant, never said that. But it is a fact that most players in SWTOR will be either a PvE'er or PvP'er. So that means the avarage players is a raider of pvp'er.

Edited by Ylliarus
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You are one person, no matter how much illusion of power and strength in numbers who follow you, you are still just one person.

 

so it matters little what you hoped for as an emperor or a commander, all you will ever be is one person and you are no more or less powerful than anyone else.

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I don't mean this disrespectfully, but I think you have a bit of a biased view as to this. The game is full of people doing raids and saying "most people don't do raids" is a rather false statement. It's actually quite the opposite, most people do raids while a minority roleplays. Fleet is full with calls to form groups for raids and if you generally look at the game from inside the game, then you'll see most players do raids.

 

I am afraid you look too much to these forums for getting an image as to what players supposedly want. From what I have experienced and seen it's almost always the same handful of people that post here, while I hear a lot of players who daily play SWTOR steer clear from the forums because they're not too fond of what is happening here. From what I have observed, a majority of the playerbase seems to either be on the SWTOR reddit or simply not engage in any forum.

This is true. Way more people post on server discords than there on forums. IM services have taken over forums services long ago.

Edited by Kiesu
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This is true. Way more people post on server discords than there on forums. IM services have taken over forums services long ago.

 

Exactly, but I can see how it can work misleading to those who stick to these forums and see almost solely people left who think alike themselves. They might consider that they're in the majority, while the actual majority of the playerbase sits on Reddit, Discord or other Apps.

 

Sidenote though, Discord is a great app to use for ingame stuff :) It works like a charm for RP guilds and our own RP project, the Spheres of Influence RP Discord Server, has benefitted from it tremendously!

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As I said, I am not saying that one Discord server speaks for the entire playerbase.

 

Everything you've said here would speak to the opposite. You said, "even among RPers, the group I'm in is excited.' as a way to try to say that even most RPers approve of the new storyline. That's just not true. The groups YOU know might be, but that isn't everyone.

 

I don't mean this disrespectfully, but I think you have a bit of a biased view as to this. The game is full of people doing raids and saying "most people don't do raids" is a rather false statement. It's actually quite the opposite, most people do raids while a minority roleplays. Fleet is full with calls to form groups for raids and if you generally look at the game from inside the game, then you'll see most players do raids.

 

I'm sorry, but calling someone 'biased' because you don't agree with them isn't correct. If there were enough progression guilds and groups interested in Ops, they wouldn't be desperate enough to hit up random players on the fleet. Before I turned off all my chat tabs, I was often whispered again and again by people looking for additional group members for various Ops.

 

The new Op did not bring people back to the game. Over and over again they have tried to force people into raiding and PvPing, and it's never worked. I've seen countless calls here and on Reddit to let people drop the GftM Op, for instance, because they're never going to play it. Do people play them? Sure, but it's disingenuous to claim that most do.

 

I am afraid you look too much to these forums for getting an image as to what players supposedly want.=(snip)

 

The avarage player is the raider or pvp'er. Wasn't the RP community deathly afraid and convinced RP would die because majority of the players were PvE'ers and PvP'ers who they were convinced of would grief them once the servers merged? I remember the heated discussions very clearly.

 

I'm afraid you believe that this is the only place I read. It's the only place I *post,* but I read the Reddit, Lit and numerous other SWTOR gathering spots.

 

And again, I think you're making judgment calls and have no way to quantify what the average player is or isn't. Saying someone isn't an average player because they don't raid or PvP is disingenuous at best. They have spent the past year focusing on Ops and PvP and I haven't seen people flocking back to the game.

 

You've attempted, again and again, to somehow try to argue that your view (wanting this storyline, doing PvP, doing Ops) is what the majority or average player wants, and that's not right.

 

BTW, the "deathly afraid" part wasn't hyperbole. I've been harassed far more often since the merger, and far more in the past few months when some of the trollish types have apparently descended on Star Forge.

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Everything you've said here would speak to the opposite. You said, "even among RPers, the group I'm in is excited.' as a way to try to say that even most RPers approve of the new storyline. That's just not true. The groups YOU know might be, but that isn't everyone.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but calling someone 'biased' because you don't agree with them isn't correct. If there were enough progression guilds and groups interested in Ops, they wouldn't be desperate enough to hit up random players on the fleet. Before I turned off all my chat tabs, I was often whispered again and again by people looking for additional group members for various Ops.

 

The new Op did not bring people back to the game. Over and over again they have tried to force people into raiding and PvPing, and it's never worked. I've seen countless calls here and on Reddit to let people drop the GftM Op, for instance, because they're never going to play it. Do people play them? Sure, but it's disingenuous to claim that most do.

 

 

 

I'm afraid you believe that this is the only place I read. It's the only place I *post,* but I read the Reddit, Lit and numerous other SWTOR gathering spots.

 

And again, I think you're making judgment calls and have no way to quantify what the average player is or isn't. Saying someone isn't an average player because they don't raid or PvP is disingenuous at best. They have spent the past year focusing on Ops and PvP and I haven't seen people flocking back to the game.

 

You've attempted, again and again, to somehow try to argue that your view (wanting this storyline, doing PvP, doing Ops) is what the majority or average player wants, and that's not right.

 

BTW, the "deathly afraid" part wasn't hyperbole. I've been harassed far more often since the merger, and far more in the past few months when some of the trollish types have apparently descended on Star Forge.

 

Then all that rests for us to do is to agree to disagree, because I have formed an entirely different opinion based on the facts I have observed and seen, the same going for you. It's clear that you're steadfast in your opinion (which is totally fine) but so am I. I can continue to respond to you because I do have a lot to say about the points you make, but sadly I don't think it has any merit because I know you'll disagree with me anyway, because you see things your way and I my way.

 

If anything I started a poll on Reddit, to satisfy my own curiousity as well as try to add to the debate here potentially.

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I'm sorry, but calling someone 'biased' because you don't agree with them isn't correct. If there were enough progression guilds and groups interested in Ops, they wouldn't be desperate enough to hit up random players on the fleet. Before I turned off all my chat tabs, I was often whispered again and again by people looking for additional group members for various Ops.

 

The new Op did not bring people back to the game. Over and over again they have tried to force people into raiding and PvPing, and it's never worked. I've seen countless calls here and on Reddit to let people drop the GftM Op, for instance, because they're never going to play it. Do people play them? Sure, but it's disingenuous to claim that most do.

Completely incorrect.

Pugging is common place in all MMOs. Always has been. It's the harder raids that are done internally within guilds like HMs and NIMs. Story mode content has never been something people *only* do with their guilds. SM pugs are now especially popular because they give a lot of conquest points. Especially last boss runs which give the most conquest points for the least time and effort required, but they require recycling lockouts and using GF.

 

The new OP didn't bring people back in game because it was released episodically. This same non-interest in episodic format has been withnessed in single-player game market, where most people play the first episode, and more and more players drop off before the last one is released. Same happened here. With the ops and with the chapters. Initial release we experienced an activity surge, that didn't stick around to wait for the next releases. People want to bench complete games, not sample-sizes delivered over a year's time.

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Then all that rests for us to do is to agree to disagree, because I have formed an entirely different opinion based on the facts I have observed and seen, the same going for you. It's clear that you're steadfast in your opinion (which is totally fine) but so am I. I can continue to respond to you because I do have a lot to say about the points you make, but sadly I don't think it has any merit because I know you'll disagree with me anyway, because you see things your way and I my way.

 

If anything I started a poll on Reddit, to satisfy my own curiousity as well as try to add to the debate here potentially.

 

Fair enough. We can agree to disagree. You're clearly excited about the new material; I'm incredibly sad about it because I know that the story part of the game is now over for me, my mains are finished, and I'm only going to take irrelevant alts through the new trainwreck.

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Completely incorrect.

Pugging is common place in all MMOs. Always has been. It's the harder raids that are done internally within guilds like HMs and NIMs. Story mode content has never been something people *only* do with their guilds. SM pugs are now especially popular because they give a lot of conquest points. Especially last boss runs which give the most conquest points for the least time and effort required, but they require recycling lockouts and using GF.

 

The new OP didn't bring people back in game because it was released episodically. This same non-interest in episodic format has been withnessed in single-player game market, where most people play the first episode, and more and more players drop off before the last one is released. Same happened here. With the ops and with the chapters. Initial release we experienced an activity surge, that didn't stick around to wait for the next releases. People want to bench complete games, not sample-sizes delivered over a year's time.

 

Yeah, I completely agree with what you said here and to be honest, this is how I have always perceived things to be ingame. But seemingly others experience it differently and if they're convinced they're right, who am I to try to convince them otherwise?

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We can make the argument that only the empire actually helped the alliance... truth is, BioWare plot armored the sith to even have a fleet... last I heard both the empire and republic were ravaged by the eternal fleet. Odessen only survives because it’s location is unknown

 

I think Lana mentions how both the Empire and Republic are breaking the limit put on by the treaty but how they're not strong enough to challenge the Eternal Empire directly, and I think one of the codex entries for KOTET did mentioned something about Acina building up a Fleet. Specifically this one.

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I think Lana mentions how both the Empire and Republic are breaking the limit put on by the treaty but how they're not strong enough to challenge the Eternal Empire directly, and I think one of the codex entries for KOTET did mentioned something about Acina building up a Fleet. Specifically this one.

 

Acina's fleet is strong enough to help the Alliance out during the battle of Voss when it's up against some of the Eternal Fleet, so safe to say that the Empire did secretly build up something formidable.

 

ETA: And in thinking it over, on Iokath if you say you don't want to ally with either faction, Lana mentions that you're going to need to choose one or the other because you cannot fight both. That would imply both the Republic and Empire have built up quite a bit of weaponry, despite the resource crisis and the damage caused by Zakuul.

Edited by IoNonSoEVero
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Acina's fleet is strong enough to help the Alliance out during the battle of Voss when it's up against some of the Eternal Fleet, so safe to say that the Empire did secretly build up something formidable.

 

ETA: And in thinking it over, on Iokath if you say you don't want to ally with either faction, Lana mentions that you're going to need to choose one or the other because you cannot fight both. That would imply both the Republic and Empire have built up quite a bit of weaponry, despite the resource crisis and the damage caused by Zakuul.

 

I think it was hinted in the codex entries and such that both the Empire and the Republic were rebuilding their military and fleets once Arcann had fallen. The Republic simply stayed out of the conflict and "abided" but only in name only, while the Sith Empire eventually openly broke it. But we do need to keep the resource crisis in mind, I wager it hampers the rebuilding of the fleets and military.

 

Although I am not a fan of the resource crisis narrative. How can a galaxy full of millions of planets suddenly be empty and completely used? It makes not sense tbh.

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Although I am not a fan of the resource crisis narrative. How can a galaxy full of millions of planets suddenly be empty and completely used? It makes not sense tbh.

I'll assume it is because Empire and Republic were Zakuul's vassals in kotfe/et and were delivering resources as tributes to Zakuul (lana told us this in the gravestone-swamp chapter, whichever it was).

 

Why Zakuul won't give those resources back now that the main culprits are not in charge anymore, or why Rep/Emp wont retaliate and recapture their resources back now that Zakuul is weak though, is anyone's guess.

Edited by Kiesu
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I think it was hinted in the codex entries and such that both the Empire and the Republic were rebuilding their military and fleets once Arcann had fallen. The Republic simply stayed out of the conflict and "abided" but only in name only, while the Sith Empire eventually openly broke it. But we do need to keep the resource crisis in mind, I wager it hampers the rebuilding of the fleets and military.

 

Although I am not a fan of the resource crisis narrative. How can a galaxy full of millions of planets suddenly be empty and completely used? It makes not sense tbh.

 

I think it makes sense... what I would like to see is this leading to a new wave of colonies and such. It's a plot point touched in Fatal Alliances, where both Empire and Republic fight over a resource-rich world. Both factions had been waging war for decades, then one decade of cold war, then another few years of war again. I don't think it is much of a stretch to assume there is a resource-crisis on the galaxy. Really though I wish we could see the effects of it more often.

 

I'll assume it is because Empire and Republic were Zakuul's vassals in kotfe/et and were delivering resources as tributes to Zakuul (lana told us this in the gravestone-swamp chapter, whichever it was).

 

Why Zakuul won't give those resources back now that the main culprits are not in charge anymore, or why Rep/Emp wont retaliate and recapture their resources back now that Zakuul is weak though, is anyone's guess.

Assuming Zakuul didn't used up those resources on their own, they never explained what Arcann was doing with it. Guess considering the resource crisis narrative we're supposed to believe Zakuul used it all.

 

Although according to the codex things were already tough even before Zakuul.

Even before the Eternal Empire's reign, the war between the Republic and Sith Empire created a constant strain on resources. Vital raw materials from planets on both sides were often shipped to the military for use in the war, creating scarcity on Republic and Imperial worlds.

 

When both factions fell to the Eternal Empire, what little raw materials and supplies they'd managed to save were forfeited to the Eternal Fleet. Conquered worlds suffered a major resource crisis and resorted to heavy rationing. In extreme cases, like Tatooine, civilian vehicles were confiscated for scrap, and residents were limited to a single government-issued ration bar per day.

 

After the Eternal Empire's defeat, many hoped for an improvement in the availability of resources. However, what little the newly freed planets had left was needed to repair the damage caused by the devastating war. Those hit hardest by the Eternal Fleet, such as Voss, struggled to survive amidst the wreckage of their crops and manufacturing facilities. For both the Empire and Republic, hope lies in what little they can secure from neutral worlds discovered during the war.

"State of the Galaxy - Resource War" codex entry, added with 5.4

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Assuming Zakuul didn't used up those resources on their own, they never explained what Arcann was doing with it. Guess considering the resource crisis narrative we're supposed to believe Zakuul used it all.

Could be. Maybe they were constantly building eternal fleetships. So many of them got destroyed in chain explosions (so bad battle formation oversight) that they were probably on constant demand :p

 

Although according to the codex things were already tough even before Zakuul.

"State of the Galaxy - Resource War" codex entry, added with 5.4

Yes there has always been a resource war of some sort. Ilum was resource race, Makeb was resource race atleast for Empire, Seeds quest were lost resource damage control... As far as I remember SOR was the only place were resources were not constantly topical.

 

Neither Tatooine nor Voss are empire/republic planets though, so that codex won't explain their resource shortages :p

Edited by Kiesu
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By your logic.....

 

My Sith who defeated everything the Eternal Throne had to throw at them from Arcann to Vaylin to Valkorian and everything in between.

 

They ARE the strongest and no one currently on the Dark Council could possibly stand against them.

In a ideal scenario my Characters would land and demand the "Council" kneel, those that didn't would not survive the encounter.

 

Now that is not all my Sith, but it is the majority of them as they act like Sith.

This is my view and is not restricted to my sith main or any of my alts. The fleet is irrelevant; my characters didn't get it until the end. The Gravestone is also irrelevant to me. Who is to say that Scorpio (if you kept her and I did) wouldn't have worked out a way to return or destroy them from Iokath? My characters did not use trinkets to destroy Valylin, Arcann, Senya or Valkorian; they used skill and power and the factions should be scared. I will not accept being an intergalactic lackey. My smuggler still has her "get out of jail free card" and intends to use it. My sith would rip the entire empire apart. The republic and the empire should be afraid alliance or none.

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MY main's story stopped when she became Emperor. She's not going to ally with either faction, and as far as she's concerned Iokath and everything related to it is hers. If she goes back to the Empire, it'll be to take her rightful place as the head. No deals.
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Completely incorrect.

Pugging is common place in all MMOs. Always has been. It's the harder raids that are done internally within guilds like HMs and NIMs. Story mode content has never been something people *only* do with their guilds. SM pugs are now especially popular because they give a lot of conquest points. Especially last boss runs which give the most conquest points for the least time and effort required, but they require recycling lockouts and using GF.

 

The new OP didn't bring people back in game because it was released episodically. This same non-interest in episodic format has been withnessed in single-player game market, where most people play the first episode, and more and more players drop off before the last one is released. Same happened here. With the ops and with the chapters. Initial release we experienced an activity surge, that didn't stick around to wait for the next releases. People want to bench complete games, not sample-sizes delivered over a year's time.

 

the new op didnt bring people in because the devs insisted on making SM GOTM hardmode and HM nightmare. Many pugs cannot complete it. For many people, the new op wasnt a way to generate conquest points, it was a way to generate repair bills. most guilds can at least get through sm, but pugs are so hit and miss, that people dont even bother to start a GOTM run. Once again, the devs catered to the 10 or 12 nim raiders in the game and disappointed the much larger pug enthusiasts. This new nim version of gotm isnt worth the effort it will take to make it.

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Omg that is called disagreeing with someone. That is literally how discussions start and debates unfold. Someone says something, another counters it by disagreeing. What, am I to just agree with you just because you're convinced you're right?

 

 

 

Thanks! :) I will admit, the spirited debates have been very interesting! It definitely made me broaden my perspectivea!

 

Although, little correction, it's 'he' :D not that I mind tho!

 

Apologies, seems my perceptions were wrong, guess it happens.

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Apologies, seems my perceptions were wrong, guess it happens.

 

My perceptions had to be corrected more than once as well, no harm done! :) the notion flattered me actually!

 

No,

You are telling it as you perceive it to be.

I perceive it to be very different than you do.

As I said before Ylliarus's posts have supported and encouraged spirited debate and I for one have enjoyed these threads.

 

You are nothing but a bully and a troll.

 

And I am happy someone recognises the difference between engaging in spirited debates and harassment :)

Edited by Ylliarus
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