I think the best move is PVP gear again as well. Plus that comes with the added benefit of enabling the devs to make the appropriate and need class balancing changes when there is an issue with one in one area of play without also effecting the other area of play where it may not be as much of an issue.

That makes sense, so we are totally not going to do that.

- Some BW dev probably

So can anyone explain how on God's green earth, approximately 2% of the remaining player base is getting favored for a new tier of gear over the other 98%? Does that make any sense to anyone outside of the oxygen deprived office of Bioware Austin? I really don't get it.

 

If they are trying to force players back into raiding, it won't have the intended effect.

I mean, I do understand the need for a grind. We are getting new content after all, the new Planet looks just amazing and it will have many aspects of a full expansion (daily area, new reputation, world bosses, new FPS, new achievements.....) and that is awesome! So I do understand that they give us a lot now and expect it to last for some time, preferably till 6.0

So they came up with a way to keep people busy with gearing again. That is all fine, its just the balance is not there between PVPers and PVEers. As it was said, in case you have an extreme example of one guild being able to down the MM bosses on more characters per week and they would be crafting all the gear for themselves or gtn they would 1. get immensely rich (sure, they earned it cause only they killed it) 2. powerful in PVP

I am fine with a long gearing way, just dont let one part of the game population have an advantage over the other.

I mean, I do understand the need for a grind. We are getting new content after all, the new Planet looks just amazing and it will have many aspects of a full expansion (daily area, new reputation, world bosses, new FPS, new achievements.....) and that is awesome! So I do understand that they give us a lot now and expect it to last for some time, preferably till 6.0

 

So they came up with a way to keep people busy with gearing again. That is all fine, its just the balance is not there between PVPers and PVEers. As it was said, in case you have an extreme example of one guild being able to down the MM bosses on more characters per week and they would be crafting all the gear for themselves or gtn they would 1. get immensely rich (sure, they earned it cause only they killed it) 2. powerful in PVP

 

I am fine with a long gearing way, just dont let one part of the game population have an advantage over the other.

Whats just as astonishingly dimwitted about this is that they are adding another grind without increasing difficulty or nerfing the current player damage/heal/survivability levels, so what's the point other than to have some superficial grind to keep players (of a type who also probably left a long time ago).

Its stupid because it sets that maybe 2% left that can reliably NiM raid over the (I'm assuming larger) population of people that can reliably PvP.

Thus, again, the simple answer is just to make this gear only useful for NiM/raiding not pvp.

So if I understand what I am hearing on the PTS, it takes 4 shards to make one piece of gear, assuming you have the schematic.

 

You can purchase 1 shard for 500 UC, and a 2nd shard for 1000 UC, per week.

You are rewarded 1 shard from the new FP on MM.

You are rewarded 1 shard from doing the new planet weekly mission.

 

So basically, without raiding, you can get one piece of gear per week, per toon, assuming you have the schematic. Given that there are 14 pieces of gear on a character sheet, it will take 14 weeks, or 3.5 months per character (though you can do more than one character simultaneously if you have the time). I'm not even going to guess at the cost in credits to get the schematics.

 

Whereas someone doing the Iokath raid on NM can get one piece of gear per week (or more depending on the loot rules of their respective guild), and the schematics to make the gear or to sell on the GTN, not including the other methods available to everyone else, which if they are truly motivated, they can also do to get two pieces of gear per week, and effectively cut their gear progression time in half.

 

I don't think it's inaccurate to say that there are at most 10 guilds per server that are capable of successfully clearing Iokath on NM. I don't count the try-hards out there who might get down a boss or two, but then wipe and are unable to complete the remaining raid. If we do the math on the assumption that these raiding guilds are going with 8-man raids, that's roughly 200 players total (10 guilds x 8 players in reach raid x 5 servers), across all servers, who are actively and consistently clearing Iokath NM content. The last speculation I heard on total active player population (excluding F2P), someone came up with about 10k. Whether that's right or wrong, if we use that figure for the sake of this argument, 200 out of 10k is .02, or 2%.

 

So can anyone explain how on God's green earth, approximately 2% of the remaining player base is getting favored for a new tier of gear over the other 98%? Does that make any sense to anyone outside of the oxygen deprived office of Bioware Austin? I really don't get it.

 

If they are trying to force players back into raiding, it won't have the intended effect.

They alienated a lot of people when they dumped 5.0 on the game adding a very clunky NOT fun grinding gear system. Lost subs and made a lot of players extremely resentful.

They alienated a lot of people who enjoyed conquest by adding restrictions to how you play conquest. Lost subs and made a lot of players extremely resentful.

Now they plan to alienate even more players by forcing players to do MM raids if they want to gear up efficiently. Guess what is going to happen?

By all means if the goal is to continue to shrink their playerbase I suggest continuing to strip away all the parts of the game that make it successful and fun. People like options, not being pigeonholed into activities that make the game more like work or a chore. It's not complicated folks.

This is actually true, before you could make a new character, level up through PVP and by the time you have reached top level you would just use all the PVP comms you have gathered to buy full ranked gear for that character! That was really neat! No grind, no credits involved.

 

Now, you will be forced to either do PVE content or farm credits, which is very very hard for some people with little time to play.

Ya, and it kept lowbie, midbie pvp healthy. Now all pvp under level 70 is just dead. I ran through 2 planet stories while leveling a vanguard before I got a pvp pop, and it shutdown immediately because it couldn't get enough players.

Ya, and it kept lowbie, midbie pvp healthy. Now all pvp under level 70 is just dead. I ran through 2 planet stories while leveling a vanguard before I got a pvp pop, and it shutdown immediately because it couldn't get enough players.

Yup, really good point

So 500 UC for first shard. 1000 for subsequent for a week. 4 shards for a piece of gear. 14 pieces of gear.

... That's... almost 50k UC to gear a single character. I started this game a little less than a year ago, do almost exclusively PvP, and I do not have 50k UC. If I did, I'd be mad to use it on a single character on gear that won't even be legacy bound (?).

This can't go through without changes.

So 500 UC for first shard. 1000 for subsequent for a week. 4 shards for a piece of gear. 14 pieces of gear.

 

... That's... almost 50k UC to gear a single character. I started this game a little less than a year ago, do almost exclusively PvP, and I do not have 50k UC. If I did, I'd be mad to use it on a single character on gear that won't even be legacy bound (?).

 

This can't go through without changes.

It will go through, and without any changes to it. I will provide you with what the future most likely holds here.

1. After the new gear grind patch is added to the game, subs will drop. For 2 weeks the forums will get flooded with resentful angry threads which largely get ignored until the numbers show the game is suffering proven by less money spent on the Cartel Market. The whole time tempers flare and people grow even more angry due to a lack of communication acknowledging the awful changes to the game.

2. This will cause a disingenuous yellow text response 2 weeks after the new gear grind is introduced saying something along the lines of, "We appreciate the feedback you have provided us about the gear grind being too steep and in a future patch will be addressing it. We believe we are on the right track though and will find a happy medium between our goal of creating challenging content and a fun exciting experience for our players! Thank you for your patience!"

3. The "future" patch will be added a month later and some of the gear grind will be slightly walked back, but this late response will do nothing to bring back angry resentful players who left out of disdain and impatience over the last month and a half since the gear grind was created.

4. Meanwhile, lowbie and mids PVP will continue to be more dead than ever, even more PVPers will leave for other games or just quit MMOs altogether feeling that the genre is no longer fulfilling as it seems MMO developers no longer care for their playerbase, only the bottom line matters now, that being money.

5. Ironically the very small percentage of players these changes catered to, that being hardcore raiders is such a small percentage of the actual population the "exciting" new gear grinding system is hardly played to it's max potential. A large portion of players, the PVPers will have left the game and the state of SWTOR will be the worst it has ever been since it's inception.

Save this post for posterity. I won't be around to dig it up when these steps are proven to be true.

To be honest with those who may not already know, but I won't be here when 5.10 lands. If I was however to have remained in the game, I would not support a PvP gear set. I've been there, done that. The Expertise sets effectively forced PvPers who also happened to enjoy PvE to grind two sets of gear. And at the time, I was doing both 8v8 Ranked and progression raiding. It wasn't fun grinding two sets of gear on multiple characters.

That said, the easiest solution to this dilemma they've caused is to increase Bolster (and perhaps fix it for Skanks while they're at it) so that 258 gear won't substantially matter in PvP. That way, PvPers won't be forced to do PvE content that they may not enjoy in order to stay competitive, PvEers can enjoy the rewards of their efforts in MM FPs or NM Iokath but won't have an advantage if they decide to PvP, and those players who still find time to do both won't be forced to grind two sets of gear.

This was not my idea. Someone else suggested it. But I think it's probably the best compromise, and likely the easiest for Bioware to implement with limited resources. My recommendation is that the PvP community get behind it, show some solidarity, and give Bioware a way out of this mess that will keep everyone who's still here happy.

To be honest with those who may not already know, but I won't be here when 5.10 lands. If I was however to have remained in the game, I would not support a PvP gear set. I've been there, done that. The Expertise sets effectively forced PvPers who also happened to enjoy PvE to grind two sets of gear. And at the time, I was doing both 8v8 Ranked and progression raiding. It wasn't fun grinding two sets of gear on multiple characters.

 

That said, the easiest solution to this dilemma they've caused is to increase Bolster (and perhaps fix it for Skanks while they're at it) so that 258 gear won't substantially matter in PvP. That way, PvPers won't be forced to do PvE content that they may not enjoy in order to stay competitive, PvEers can enjoy the rewards of their efforts in MM FPs or NM Iokath but won't have an advantage if they decide to PvP, and those players who still find time to do both won't be forced to grind two sets of gear.

 

This was not my idea. Someone else suggested it. But I think it's probably the best compromise, and likely the easiest for Bioware to implement with limited resources. My recommendation is that the PvP community get behind it, show some solidarity, and give Bioware a way out of this mess that will keep everyone who's still here happy.

This.

While there are some pvpers who only pvp, many also do some PVE. Having to swap out gear sets every time you want to to switch from one game mode to another is tedious and it takes up space unnecessarily in either your inventory or your cargo hold. Expertise gear was a bad system for PVP and Bioware was right to scrap it the first time. It should not be brought back.

I also agree with your suggested solution. Gear should be made a non-factor in PVP by taking all players to the current top tier though bolster.

*If* expertise is going to be brought back at all, have it be limited to two relics that contain all the expertise stat you need. I'd rather go with the bolster solution but swapping relics wouldn't be as bad as having to swap 14 gear pieces every time you want to go from PVE to PVP or vice versa.

It will go through, and without any changes to it. I will provide you with what the future most likely holds here.

 

1. After the new gear grind patch is added to the game, subs will drop. For 2 weeks the forums will get flooded with resentful angry threads which largely get ignored until the numbers show the game is suffering proven by less money spent on the Cartel Market. The whole time tempers flare and people grow even more angry due to a lack of communication acknowledging the awful changes to the game.

 

2. This will cause a disingenuous yellow text response 2 weeks after the new gear grind is introduced saying something along the lines of, "We appreciate the feedback you have provided us about the gear grind being too steep and in a future patch will be addressing it. We believe we are on the right track though and will find a happy medium between our goal of creating challenging content and a fun exciting experience for our players! Thank you for your patience!"

 

3. The "future" patch will be added a month later and some of the gear grind will be slightly walked back, but this late response will do nothing to bring back angry resentful players who left out of disdain and impatience over the last month and a half since the gear grind was created.

 

4. Meanwhile, lowbie and mids PVP will continue to be more dead than ever, even more PVPers will leave for other games or just quit MMOs altogether feeling that the genre is no longer fulfilling as it seems MMO developers no longer care for their playerbase, only the bottom line matters now, that being money.

 

5. Ironically the very small percentage of players these changes catered to, that being hardcore raiders is such a small percentage of the actual population the "exciting" new gear grinding system is hardly played to it's max potential. A large portion of players, the PVPers will have left the game and the state of SWTOR will be the worst it has ever been since it's inception.

 

Save this post for posterity. I won't be around to dig it up when these steps are proven to be true.

While the forums will be full of threats and quit game threads, PVP will be popping non stop on darth malgus and the US servers.

I will never understand mass hysteria over a video game. I'm not "smart" enough for that it seems...

While the forums will be full of threats and quit game threads, PVP will be popping non stop on darth malgus and the US servers.

 

I will never understand mass hysteria over a video game. I'm not "smart" enough for that it seems...

This is a forum. For discussion. For people to voice their opinions about this game. And that's what they're doing. What don't you understand?

To be honest with those who may not already know, but I won't be here when 5.10 lands. If I was however to have remained in the game, I would not support a PvP gear set. I've been there, done that. The Expertise sets effectively forced PvPers who also happened to enjoy PvE to grind two sets of gear. And at the time, I was doing both 8v8 Ranked and progression raiding. It wasn't fun grinding two sets of gear on multiple characters.

While there are some pvpers who only pvp, many also do some PVE. Having to swap out gear sets every time you want to to switch from one game mode to another is tedious and it takes up space unnecessarily in either your inventory or your cargo hold. Expertise gear was a bad system for PVP and Bioware was right to scrap it the first time. It should not be brought back.

A grind? The expertise PVP sets was a grind? It took about 3 weeks for a casual PVPer to be BiS and could be done in 1-2 weeks with a bit of dedication. Most of the time it would be instant as people had plenty of comms saved up. The whole point of asking for a return to PVP gear is to NOT have a grind. And what is this about having to run with 2 sets? Do you really hop so wildly between high level PvE content and then back to PVP content, that you can not spend 30 seconds to take the appropriate gear out of storage? You think this is a valid reason to **** over the PVP community? Jesus.

These are self-entitled, baseless arguments and only serve to fuel the destructive decision of continues gear-apocalypse.

While the forums will be full of threats and quit game threads, PVP will be popping non stop on darth malgus and the US servers.

I dunno, I am starting to have issues with SR que pops on DM, but maybe its just people swaping to farm mats for 5.10

I dunno, I am starting to have issues with SR que pops on DM, but maybe its just people swaping to farm mats for 5.10

If they lose more disgruntled players when they introduce the next big patch, it's going to have a negative impact on the games population. They can't keep chiseling away the population and expect the game to continue to flourish. I don't say the game will die, but do they really want to lose any part of the playerbase at this point?

RNG + heavy gear grind = bad. It's not rocket science.

This is a forum. For discussion. For people to voice their opinions about this game. And that's what they're doing. What don't you understand?

Apparently expressing our displeasure at an upcoming change in hopes to mitigate any damage we anticipate is bad and we should just do what BW wants or quit.

Unfortunately BW seems to think that way too...

While there are some pvpers who only pvp, many also do some PVE. Having to swap out gear sets every time you want to to switch from one game mode to another is tedious and it takes up space unnecessarily in either your inventory or your cargo hold. Expertise gear was a bad system for PVP and Bioware was right to scrap it the first time. It should not be brought back.

Expertise was bad at start. Obtaining non-ranked pvp gear didn't take much effort. 1-2 weeks of grind was enough honestly. Now ranked tier? That took forever(+3 weeks easily), which in this case, I agree.

Still, after a while, all became really good. Regular PvP set could be obtained in 3-4 days up to a week and full Ranked PvP set after 2 or 3 weeks at most, without even trying, and that means do dailies until the weekly was done and ta-dah, you got yourself full set.

I also agree with your suggested solution. Gear should be made a non-factor in PVP by taking all players to the current top tier though bolster.

Then you say that bringing garbage 230 unaug'd should be at same level of full 248+augments? If that's the case, every PvPer would have simply wasted all their time until now.

*If* expertise is going to be brought back at all, have it be limited to two relics that contain all the expertise stat you need. I'd rather go with the bolster solution but swapping relics wouldn't be as bad as having to swap 14 gear pieces every time you want to go from PVE to PVP or vice versa.

Expertise should still be full gear swap but still remain easy as it was at the end before it was removed. And honestly, if you just went with just relics, then the pure PvE relics would become useless. No point in even grinding them. Skip PvE relics to grind PvP relics and do every content with it and in that case you'll be abusing Expertise mechanics, as healer, since the stat would boost healing far more with PvP than PvE could(in these circumstances of course).

And honestly, swapping 14 gear pieces is too far from being dramatic. Get gear, slap some cheap augs and you're good to go.

A grind? The expertise PVP sets was a grind? It took about 3 weeks for a casual PVPer to be BiS and could be done in 1-2 weeks with a bit of dedication. Most of the time it would be instant as people had plenty of comms saved up. The whole point of asking for a return to PVP gear is to NOT have a grind. And what is this about having to run with 2 sets? Do you really hop so wildly between high level PvE content and then back to PVP content, that you can not spend 30 seconds to take the appropriate gear out of storage? You think this is a valid reason to **** over the PVP community? Jesus.

 

These are self-entitled, baseless arguments and only serve to fuel the destructive decision of continues gear-apocalypse.

Turn down the hyperbole. How exactly am I asking the devs to **** all over the PVP community? I'm a PVPer. You don't speak for every PVPer no more than I speak for every PVPer. We have different opinions on this subject but our opinions are nothing more than our own. Don't pretend otherwise.

You also need to work on your reading comprehension. Both Mourn & myself are in favor of bolster raising everyone to 252 and making the gear grind more of a PVE thing. That's the opposite of asking the devs to *** all over the PVP community. PVP should be about skill, not the gear you're wearing.

Expertise gear was a bad system. If I want to do PVE I just want to queue for it with no hassles. If I do PVP I just want to queue for it with no hassles. So yes, I think having to go to a cargo bay to swap out gear sets is tedious and a waste of both time and space. I'd rather not do that again.

Furthermore the old system of gearing was much harsher on entry level players. If a new player didn't have a full set of expertise gear or didn't know how to make the most of bolster they were basically free kills. A new player now can step into PVP with their PVE gear and still be competitive. Or at least more competitive than they could when expertise was still a thing.

 

Then you say that bringing garbage 230 unaug'd should be at same level of full 248+augments? If that's the case, every PvPer would have simply wasted all their time until now.

 

.

I don't think there is any way around that honestly. The gear grind should never have been introduced to PVP at all but unfortunately that ship has sailed. That means going forward there are really only three options. The first is to keep the current gear grind in place making PVPers continuously having to upgrade to each new highest gear tier just like PVErs. The second is to replace it with something resembling the old expertise system. The third is to scrap the gear treadmill entirely for PVP and level the playing field as much as possible via Bolster.

Others may disagree but I find option three the least bad option. Both #2 and #3 render the grind you went through to get to 248 meaningless, but the alternative is staying on a gear treadmill. #3 makes PVP primarily about skill and not gearing, which at least IMO should be how it works ideally.

You also need to work on your reading comprehension. Both Mourn & myself are in favor of bolster raising everyone to 252 and making the gear grind more of a PVE thing. That's the opposite of asking the devs to *** all over the PVP community. PVP should be about skill, not the gear you're wearing.

The stats won't be the way you want in bolster and can lead to certain exploits. Relics and so on, remember that.

Expertise gear was a bad system. If I want to do PVE I just want to queue for it with no hassles. If I do PVP I just want to queue for it with no hassles. So yes, I think having to go to a cargo bay to swap out gear sets is tedious and a waste of both time and space. I'd rather not do that again.

How about you keep the set in your inventory? You can have 80 slots in your inventory. 14 of them for PvP gear, 3-5 for medpacks(PvE and PvP) and adrenals(DR for PvP and DPS boosting for PvE) and 2 more for stims(accuracy/tank or mastery+power).

I did that and had no issues whatsoever regarding that. That leaves 60 or more slots free for whatever you want to put in them

Furthermore the old system of gearing was much harsher on entry level players. If a new player didn't have a full set of expertise gear or didn't know how to make the most of bolster they were basically free kills. A new player now can step into PVP with their PVE gear and still be competitive. Or at least more competitive than they could when expertise was still a thing.

How was it harsh? You mean the fact that you could get gear in a week without even trying? And that's the basic level of gear.

If you meant when Ranked comms were a thing, I agree but after the change for all gear to become the same under Warzone comms, it became absurdly easy to get the gear.

If they lose more disgruntled players when they introduce the next big patch, it's going to have a negative impact on the games population. They can't keep chiseling away the population and expect the game to continue to flourish. I don't say the game will die, but do they really want to lose any part of the playerbase at this point?

 

RNG + heavy gear grind = bad. It's not rocket science.

They just don’t seem to understand that for every action there is a reaction.

If there is no consideration of what that reaction will be, then it’s a recipe for disaster.

And I think this is why the game is in the situation it is. Bioware just don’t consider if the negative reactions will out weigh the positive when they implement something.

I’m not even sure they think there will be negative affects. It seems they don’t do a risk analysis before moving forward.

I don't think there is any way around that honestly. The gear grind should never have been introduced to PVP at all but unfortunately that ship has sailed. That means going forward there are really only three options. The first is to keep the current gear grind in place making PVPers continuously having to upgrade to each new highest gear tier just like PVErs. The second is to replace it with something resembling the old expertise system. The third is to scrap the gear treadmill entirely for PVP and level the playing field as much as possible via Bolster.

The Expertise system was fine as it was. It was low in stats (I remember that Ranked Gear was 'story' mode gear in PvE terms and Regular PvP set was lower than that) so that it couldn't be used in nim content of PvE but perfect for PvP since Expertise was compensating that partand PvE players couldn't go with NiM gear to spank on PvP but actually getting thrown around like ragdolls just because they lacked Expertise Rating.

Anyway:

Opinion regarding 1) No because from what it seems, the gearing will roll around NiM raiding players and assuming what the devs said, we will be capped to 3 characters if we just use UCs alone before it becomes ludicrously expensive to gear more characters thus just ruining the game altogether for PvPers.

Opinion regarding 2) The best option and make the gear grind as it was like in 3.0. Make expertise gear, or something similar, to be brought back and be made to be in lower tiers.

Opinion regardind 3) ****ed up stats, will bring back exploits and honestly, it will make all the effort that everyone had until now pointless, specially for players who only do PvP.

That is the same as saying this: You work for a company for years, you always had put lot of effort in your activities in your company and you were always the best worker there, as well. What happens? Some random guy is hired into the company, comes in, does **** nothing in the work for 1 week and gets promotion when instead it should be you.

That's a perfect idea, right?

Others may disagree but I find option three the least bad option. Both #2 and #3 render the grind you went through to get to 248 meaningless, but the alternative is staying on a gear treadmill. #3 makes PVP primarily about skill and not gearing, which at least IMO should be how it works ideally.

As I said before, Expertise should be back and the gear should be 2 tiers below NiM PvE gear in terms of stats, so that it can't be used in PvE as effectively that it is on PvP. And the grind wasn't hard at all, come on.

This is a forum. For discussion. For people to voice their opinions about this game. And that's what they're doing. What don't you understand?

Well apparently we are all crying and he doesn’t like that.

So he feels it necessary to have a cry about it and tell us how we should stop and just accept what ever we are given or leave the game.

Obviously a white knight. I wonder what the kick backs are from Bioware?