Most warzones have 2 nodes, and 8 players. 1v1 should not happen regularly.

 

Op ambushes you? CC, stun, slow jthem and run to the node where your other teammates should be. If they're all fighting off-node, that's another problem.

 

Your team owns two nodes? Never have less than 2 guards per node. Ditto on voidstar. Don't wait for a call, make sure there's always at least 2 people per door.

 

1v1 in regular warzones is a result of people not playing correctly.

 

Now, if you're playing against a team with 3 or 4 ops on it - yeah, that's annoying. Still not as annoying as a team with 3 or 4 mercs all netting you when you're the op, though.

I used to believe the same thing after playing operative for 6 years but that one guy did a r/iamverysmart post so I have to concede that operatives are clearly the best in the game at everything and should be immediately deleted.

I'm terrible 1v1.

Don't let it go to your head, but actually, you're not terrible. Not even close. The difference between you and another good Operative I had mentioned (Kiss) is that she enjoys ganking people 1v1, whereas you are much more focused on the objectives in the match. You'll avoid a 1v1 if it serves no purpose, which makes you a smarter (and arguably more dangerous) player, but if you did decide to 1v1 someone (to ninja a node with a single defender, for example), it would be a safe bet you'd come out on top.

 

They're only problematic if you're trying to 1v1 them in a vacuum. If you're defending and call for help when the operative appears then you shouldn't be having a 1v1. If there's a decent operative defending it's largely pointless to attack with 1 so you need overlap with enough momentum to cause the enemy team to mess their distribution in the scramble.

 

Most of the problems people have with operatives are because they play entirely into the operatives strength and the scratch their head why it didn't work.

This more succinctly summarizes everything I described in my rather verbose post. In particular, the example I gave when I watched from Mid as half my team chased an Operative around the dais of a side node like a bunch of Keystone Cops in the Benny Hill Show.

Don't let it go to your head, but actually, you're not terrible. Not even close. The difference between you and another good Operative I had mentioned (Kiss) is that she enjoys ganking people 1v1, whereas you are much more focused on the objectives in the match. You'll avoid a 1v1 if it serves no purpose, which makes you a smarter (and arguably more dangerous) player, but if you did decide to 1v1 someone (to ninja a node with a single defender, for example), it would be a safe bet you'd come out on top.

 

 

 

This more succinctly summarizes everything I described in my rather verbose post. In particular, the example I gave when I watched from Mid as half my team chased an Operative around the dais of a side node like a bunch of Keystone Cops in the Benny Hill Show.

I would agree with you but the guy looking for help on how to deal with operatives told me that there's nothing you can do against operatives so I'm going to shelf all my operative experience and listen to the guy who's asking for help opinion.

Most warzones have 2 nodes, and 8 players. 1v1 should not happen regularly.

 

Op ambushes you? CC, stun, slow jthem and run to the node where your other teammates should be. If they're all fighting off-node, that's another problem.

 

Your team owns two nodes? Never have less than 2 guards per node. Ditto on voidstar. Don't wait for a call, make sure there's always at least 2 people per door.

 

1v1 in regular warzones is a result of people not playing correctly.

 

Now, if you're playing against a team with 3 or 4 ops on it - yeah, that's annoying. Still not as annoying as a team with 3 or 4 mercs all netting you when you're the op, though.

2 guards per node means you lose vs a good team during voidstar.

1 stealth guarding is far better. So I would not say never.

I would agree with you but the guy looking for help on how to deal with operatives told me that there's nothing you can do against operatives so I'm going to shelf all my operative experience and listen to the guy who's asking for help opinion.

Context matters, and players like you (and me) who play objectively are quickly becoming the minority in WZs. Players like Kiss, who is very good on her Operative, is less concerned about objectives than she is about looking for 1v1 opportunities. She's very difficult to beat 1v1, and in most cases against average or below-average players, they are going to lose and come away with a bad taste in their mouth. Not necessarily because they made the mistake of writing a check with their ego that their character couldn't cash, but because they were ganked by someone like Kiss and were frustrated by their inability to deal with that. Players like her (whom I've played with frequently) aren't soloing someone in the middle of a brawl - she's looking for that lone gazelle that got separated from the herd, such as someone travelling between nodes. In that context, yes, Operatives can be frustrating to encounter, and a competent one is hard to beat. Not impossible, as I mentioned killing Kiss solo a couple of times, but certainly the advantage is in their favor against most other classes and players.

I think that's the perspective of the OP here, at least, that's what it appears to be if I give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't think he's saying that Operatives are gods, or that you don't know what you're talking about, Snave. Though there does seem to be some thinly veiled prejudice behind the purpose of this thread, justified or not.

I would agree with you but the guy looking for help on how to deal with operatives told me that there's nothing you can do against operatives so I'm going to shelf all my operative experience and listen to the guy who's asking for help opinion.

I used to believe the same thing after playing operative for 6 years but that one guy did a r/iamverysmart post so I have to concede that operatives are clearly the best in the game at everything and should be immediately deleted.

LMAO, you're the one whose "advice" was to tell people not to engage with the operative in the first place, now you're telling me I'm the one toting the narrative that there's nothing to be done? Good god man, you're taking this way too personally and it's clouding your judgement.

And where did I ask for Ops to be nerfed? Even once. And where, again, even once, did I say that operatives are the best at everything and they should be stripped out of the game? I seem to recall you mentioning something about hyperbole.

The bottom line is that I have no interest, and no stake, in "winning" this debate, because I never wanted it to be a debate. If you feel slighted because you started an argument and I didn't agree with you, so be it. My goal was to find ways to adapt to what I feel is an unnecessarily unbalanced game situation knowing full well that it will never be remedied. The rest is projection on your part.

LMAO, you're the one whose "advice" was to tell people not to engage with the operative in the first place, now you're telling me I'm the one toting the narrative that there's nothing to be done? Good god man, you're taking this way too personally and it's clouding your judgement.

 

And where did I ask for Ops to be nerfed? Even once. And where, again, even once, did I say that operatives are the best at everything and they should be stripped out of the game? I seem to recall you mentioning something about hyperbole.

 

The bottom line is that I have no interest, and no stake, in "winning" this debate, because I never wanted it to be a debate. If you feel slighted because you started an argument and I didn't agree with you, so be it. My goal was to find ways to adapt to what I feel is an unnecessarily unbalanced game situation knowing full well that it will never be remedied. The rest is projection on your part.

You were given answers, you ignored the answers and insisted you were correct. My replies towards you are purely because the levels of ignorance in this game when it comes to pvp are ridiculous and I try to reign them in when possible. You can think what you want but I'd have expected a guy who's asking for advice on operatives in regs would listen to an operative who plays regs.

Feel free to keep thinking this is somehow me being personal or having a grudge, you're just wrong and I've tried to explain that multiple times as politely as I can. I have no issue walking away leaving you still being wrong.

Maybe next time make a post saying "counter to operatives but only in the criteria that I set and I can change the criteria whenever I want to whatever I want and I'm never going to change what I do and operatives smell"

You were given answers, you ignored the answers and insisted you were correct. My replies towards you are purely because the levels of ignorance in this game when it comes to pvp are ridiculous and I try to reign them in when possible. You can think what you want but I'd have expected a guy who's asking for advice on operatives in regs would listen to an operative who plays regs.

 

Feel free to keep thinking this is somehow me being personal or having a grudge, you're just wrong and I've tried to explain that multiple times as politely as I can. I have no issue walking away leaving you still being wrong.

 

Maybe next time make a post saying "counter to operatives but only in the criteria that I set and I can change the criteria whenever I want to whatever I want and I'm never going to change what I do and operatives smell"

Well, at least you lightened it up a bit this time. I'll give you credit for that.

opers too op babyrage nerf plz

babyrage, that sounds like a character name

OP, here's an answer on how to beat operatives

Being serious though, Snave made a good point that there’s always a class that is best at something. Operatives are best in duels, being aware of that you should implement this knowledge on any 1 v 1 situation with operative shall that be node defending/attacking or getting ambushed by an operative while running around alone. Actually if you have problems with this class, go play it and see for yourself how unfair their “advantage” is.

Concealment’s roll has overgrown some maps that can be embarrassing, but even that is easy to be dealt with (see the link above).

You're all literally talking about duelling during a warzone. The only reason that happens is because

 

a) You're bad and can't call incoming in which case you lose vs any player that's better than you or

b) Your team is bad and doesn't respond to calls in which case you lose vs any player that's better than you.

 

If you're attacking the offnode with an operative defender 1v1 then you're

 

a) playing a bit silly if you know you'll lose

b) the situation is still silly if the defender can call for help

c) literally a burden to your team

 

Only game mode operatives are the best at is duels, which isn't a game mode and only happens in warzones if multiple other things go wrong for you. There will always be a class that's better at 1v1s, if you nerf operatives then replace this whole conversation with whatever other class takes over that role.

 

This conversation is a tremendous insight into the current state of regs in this game.

There are really only 3 options if you inadvertently find yourself in a 1v1 with an operative.

1. Call for help

2. Disengage if you can

3. Die

I agree that if you are purposely putting yourself into a 1v1 situation with an operative, you are doing it wrong and are detrimental to your team.

The only time you should even find yourself in that situation is if you are guarding and get jumped. Then if you don’t know how to call and play delaying tactics till back up arrives, and instead try to face tank the op, you will die fast. If your team doesn’t come, that’s on them and not you.

Ops are fine as they are when compared to most other classes at the moment (except Sorcs).

But they are a pain in my proverbial butt. That constant stabby stabby and you can’t defend or attack them after their first attack or if your DCDs are gone is by far the most annoying and most unfair situation. Not being able to hit back for such a long period of time while they stun/mezz you to death is not fun and extremely frustrating. It’s why I just grab my ankles and brace if I’m inadvertently in a 1v1. I know I’m going to die and there is nothing I can do.

I really wish you could turn a little bit in the mez to hit back. It would also make the skill a little harder to use because the op would need to try and move to stay behind you. At the moment you can just walk up, position at your leasure, start stabbing and not even need to move.

At least before total black out, there was a chance to defend. Now the op can basically stand on top of you for as long they want. It’s the same with Sins. The removal of black out as an actived CD ability wasn’t needed.

opers too op babyrage nerf plz

Citation needed.

There are really only 3 options if you inadvertently find yourself in a 1v1 with an operative.

1. Call for help

2. Disengage if you can

3. Die

While true, those seem like preposterous options. But it is the way it is.

But they are a pain in my proverbial butt. That constant stabby stabby and you can’t defend or attack them after their first attack or if your DCDs are gone is by far the most annoying and most unfair situation. Not being able to hit back for such a long period of time while they stun/mezz you to death is not fun and extremely frustrating. It’s why I just grab my ankles and brace if I’m inadvertently in a 1v1. I know I’m going to die and there is nothing I can do.

.

I must admit, I do agree with this.

The reality is, we don't get to decide when and/or where someone will attack us. I get attacked by stealth all the time when I'm in transit and it is them initiating the attack. Whether or not is it wise or proper form someone to initiate a lone attack on a lone opponent anywhere on the map is largely irreverent to the person getting ganked,

Not everyone sees Warzones as places where people shouldn't be fighting. I freely and unabashedly admit I certainly don't. You know me first hand, we've played together, you know me better than everyone here [me and Lhance have done some playing together too, boy can heal!!!], so you already know that, just as I know you are the best objective player I've ever played with . Objective point's monster. We have very different playstyles, and it's never been a problem for either one of us playing with each other, as we compliment each other well when combined. - Because of that, I cannot help but laugh a bit when people imply that if people are fighting in WZs they are doing it wrong or that's not what BW intended. You would have to be a special kind of moron to name something a Warzone and think that people might just take that as an oh so subtle hint that there might be some fighting involved.

war zone noun

Definition of war zone

1 : a zone in which belligerents are waging war broadly : an area marked by extreme violence

Futhermore, generally speaking when you wish to discourage a certain kind of behavior, you usually don't have contunually stacking awards given for ever increasing amounts of that behavior you are trying to discourage.

I respect anyone's opinions on the matter, whether they are in keeping with mine or not, but, speaking only for myself, there is only one reason I quece up for Warzones and it's because I love to fight.

We have some different mentalities that exist within WZs and just because you might not proscribe to one or another, doesn't mean there aren't people there who will. That's why you are seeing Operatives behaving and viewing things in very different ways. You have Snave [ who's knowledge about Operatives is unrivaled] who is a very objective base minded player so of course he is behaving as such, but, than you have other Operatives [who also may be quite knowledgeable about the class] who are acting and prioritizing things in very different ways.

In that respect, yes, there are times an Operative can force you into 1v1 whether you like it or not. As much as I respect Snave's knowledge and abilities in almost all things Operative related as being without peer, perhaps his only fault is in not seeing the point of view of a combat focused player playing an Operative and how that may make them act in ways contradictory to what he would see as wise.

There is a difference between deathmatching and ignoring objectives and supporting objectives thru the use of force [combat], I like to think of myself as a Carnage Marauder belonging to the later, but, we cannot truly objectively see ourselves[pun intended =]. I see it as downplaying one's weaknesses and playing to one's strengths, and others might take a similar view in their cases or not.

Deathmatchers or not, optimal or not, whether we agree or not, you will not find a wz that does not consist of people belonging to one of those three camps. [Directly objective focused, supporting objective based players thru combat application [defending nodes, attacking nodes, responding to calls for assistance, peeling for healers, riding shotgun to the ball carrier, etc.], and deathmatchers.

If a stealthed Assy or an Operative want's to 1v1 me while I'm in transit, wise or not on his part, there is not one thing I can do to prevent him from intiating it., and all the perdation in the world is not gonna let me outrun an Operative who can be peppering me with ranged basic attack at all times even if I get a head start on him. But realistically, it won't likely get that far as staby staby all but ensures I'm not getting away.

One could make the argument that you can "stun" him, 'slow him' [ melee don't slow each other, it kinda defeats the point], ' mezz him' etc, and that's a valid point assuming of course you have them at the ready and off cooldown. That, however, would be one of the worst assumptions one could make in a WZ that has already started. Furthermore, Staby Staby can even limit those options depending where the Op is standing.

All in all, I'm not against OPs. But, Staby Staby's bit much at times.

I would agree with you but the guy looking for help on how to deal with operatives told me that there's nothing you can do against operatives so I'm going to shelf all my operative experience and listen to the guy who's asking for help opinion.

I missed him responding in that way, so I guess he was just being passive-aggressive in expressing his frustrations with losing to an ops, veiling a rhetorical question in the guise of a request for help. Guess we all got trolled.

While true, those seem like preposterous options. But it is the way it is.

I don't view these options as preposterous. I like the class even though I never play the dps spec.

Operatives adds some drama to the WZs, especially the good ones. 99% of them (even the good ones) tend to not put a lot of focus on their damage output so the class doesn't impact matches with brute power/damage.

I like the niche operatives have in PVP on this game. They add an element of thinking to play it and to counter it, which yes isn't easy and generally does require some skill and communication or understanding when fighting them.

I recognize their strengths and a good operative really can single-handedly turn the tide in a WZ but that doesn't mean they need nerfed. Basically operatives are like a lubricant that makes everything work better in the WZ when played well.

Honestly I found mara/juggs more frustrating when I used to play DPS merc before the class got decent DCDs. Essentially no matter how great of a kiter you were, you were a free kill for melee as a merc, no matter what I will never forget the annoyance of having zero counter to classes that were impossible to kite that could wreck my merc in seconds! At least with operatives you can string them along and live till you get help unless you are stranded alone or you are out of power.

I missed him responding in that way, so I guess he was just being passive-aggressive in expressing his frustrations with losing to an ops, veiling a rhetorical question in the guise of a request for help. Guess we all got trolled.

Wow, what an unexpectedly comprehensive response. Thank you. And thanks to all of the other responders.

I got plenty of informative and useful posts before the "what you really want is to nerf my class and I'm going to cry foul and stamp my feet until you agree with me" crowd showed up. I don't know what you're going on about.

Rooted ops find it more difficult to roll and when slowed dont roll or run as well.

Stun locked ops cant use evasion or roll away so that is when you use your best burst (put a dots of them for good measure so they pop out of stealth) They cant keep kolto probes up as well either.

The sad truth is however they are the best 1v1 class out there over the course of many patches played correctly and you will not win vs a good op.

Maybe pressure them enough to have them panic and slow them down but if you expect to win a 1v1 vs someone like arvengis you won't. Even in his rusty state.

I'm guessing OP hasn't fought a good SIN yet either?

Part of the issue you are having is stealth vs non-stealth.

If you must go against an op at a node solo (which really? no), then never break the 1st mezz, nor the 2nd mezz, because he will flashbang you on the 3rd after your whitebar wears off. If you somehow manage to chuff off the operative stealth game, you still have to deal with roll2win. This ability let's an operative negate your attacks and kite the **** out of you until he can stealth, or flashbang, or straight up kill you.

A defending operative's goal is not necessarily to kill you. It's to keep the node. An operative attacking a node is not to necessarily 1v1 kill you, it's to capture it.... The problem with the 1v1 thought process is that it's not what an 8v8 warzone is about. Thus "you're doing it wrong."

I'm guessing OP hasn't fought a good SIN yet either?

 

Part of the issue you are having is stealth vs non-stealth.

 

If you must go against an op at a node solo (which really? no), then never break the 1st mezz, nor the 2nd mezz, because he will flashbang you on the 3rd after your whitebar wears off. If you somehow manage to chuff off the operative stealth game, you still have to deal with roll2win. This ability let's an operative negate your attacks and kite the **** out of you until he can stealth, or flashbang, or straight up kill you.

 

A defending operative's goal is not necessarily to kill you. It's to keep the node. An operative attacking a node is not to necessarily 1v1 kill you, it's to capture it.... The problem with the 1v1 thought process is that it's not what an 8v8 warzone is about. Thus "you're doing it wrong."

Sending 240k hp to an off node takes away 120k hp from mid. So whatever 120k hp goes to the off node must either be a dps or someone not presently necessary like a healer or tank due to the presence of an additional healer or tank.

The problem with ops at an off node means the 1v1 must become a 2v1 very quickly and finish very quickly or the game is lost at mid.

This is best illustrated by novare where pugs never regroup and counter attack unless some quit and are replaced by higher calibre players who can outdps outheal or outtank the opposition swinging the battle in favor of the losing team.

So I do understand why people get upset about ops being the undisputed 1v1 kings.

Most games are decided by hp distribution. Again if you can distribute enough hp to a node in time and win the battle of attrition then you win the wz. I often see people who grasp side strats fail to grasp the idea of hp strats. First kill is an example of this in arenas where it is very often the first kill that decides a game unless the first kill was dead weight to begin with.

LMAO, you're the one whose "advice" was to tell people not to engage with the operative in the first place, now you're telling me I'm the one toting the narrative that there's nothing to be done? Good god man, you're taking this way too personally and it's clouding your judgement.

I hope I am not intentionally putting words into Snave's mouth, but I think his other posts explained that it is not optimal to face an Operative in a part of the game (1v1) where they are at their strongest. Granted, there are times when you can't decide when the fight starts, but you should, whenever possible, try to tilt the table to your advantage. Like if I play on my Assassin, I would rather not fight a Sniper on an open field simply because they would hold all the cards.

As for general advice, I think at least Snave and Mournblood gave excellent responses. If an Operative forces an encounter while you are defending, call help and focus on surviving. If you need to break a sap to prevent them from capping, use your Interrupt ability, because most Operatives reflexively use Flashbang instantly, but in this case they could not start capping for four seconds, essentially nullifying the Flashbang.

If you play a ranged class, try to stay away from the node (but within interruption distance), so if they vanish and sap or use Flashbang, they can't cap fast enough. Knockbacks, slows and roots are your friends as you wait for help. Most classes can stay alive against Operatives quite long, assuming they play defensively instead of trying to engage directly. Sadly, if your team doesn't send help, you are probably out of luck, but that's no longer your fault.

Extra credit to Zhezvya for the excellent Sepultura reference.

Outside of 1v1 Operatives are not overpowered. They aren't dps'ing while they run away and heal.

I had to go back and laugh at this statement. The game should be designed that just anyone can hold their ground against another class.

That does not apply to Operatives. They are the 1v1 (YOU'RE SCREWED!) when they are on you. And I know for a fact the main developer of the game plays Operative so there is ZERO chance they'll ever be brought down to the point they actually need a healer like everyone else.

But "outside of 1v1" made me laugh. That's a fact, no one can 1v1 an operative.

You're screwed and you made my point 100% valid.

Nerf/delete Operatives.

I had to go back and laugh at this statement. The game should be designed that just anyone can hold their ground against another class.

 

Just no and why should it be ? This game is more like rock-paper-scissors , some classes/spec are good in a situation or against another classes/spec but bad in others.

Put a concealment op in arena and it is garbage, put it in the fight of the central node, not good also. But yes, it shines when attacking or defending the side nodes.

And why does it shine so well when attacking/defending the off nodes? Because lot of people don't know how to handle them and because they don't need to kill , they can just sap/mezz cap or delay almost indefinitely a cap in a 1 vs 1 situation (even more if people don't know how to counter them).