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Why is there no kill option for Lana?


Avashnea

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WARNING: Opinion ahead! Read at your own risk! Above all, do not treat this as an authoritative description of anything except my opinions.

 

Koth did sort of deserve it, in one interpretation. He *clearly* joined the Alliance for his purposes rather than ours, and then demonstrated this in a way that actively damaged the Alliance's ability to continue its work. It's a truism of "rebel" groups that they don't have a lot of room for manoeuvre in situations like this, and must often impose much harsher penalties than you'd normally expect. (It's not so much that he necessarily deserved being killed, as such, but that the Alliance is not in a position to do something less extreme, so it's your only realistic course of action if you are going to punish him.(1))

 

For characters on the darker, sithier end of things, Theron's actions do, indeed, justify leaving him behind - it's a breach of trust, and breaches of trust from people known to be spies are that much worse. I'm not saying, by the way, that he *deserves* that, merely that such a player-character has no need of further justification. The breach-of-trust thing pops up if you confront Koth in KotET but decide to forgive him. See spoiler box, and see also the notes about insurrectionists and their ability to offer a nuanced justice system.

 

Koth declines the offer to return, citing the breached trust as a reason.

 

 

Lana, on the other hand, has consistently worked to further the Alliance's goals. No, it hasn't always gone according to plan, but she offers advice, and even if she disagrees, once you make the decision, she takes it and runs with it.

 

So I think you have to explain *why* you think she deserves it and they don't. (That said, I agree that they don't, in any absolute sense, deserve it.)

 

(1) This idea crops up in the history of our world, everywhere there's some sort of insurrection: the Irish Troubles, the Cuban Revolution, etc.(2) In every case, the insurrectionists have much less flexibility, and can't support a system that allows them to have a more nuanced justice system. They have to be more tolerant than we are of low-level stuff, and then abruptly shift to extremely harsh punishments as the seriousness of the offence rises.

 

(2) I would in general exclude the American Civil War from this. The Confederacy was large enough and sufficiently like a fully-developed nation state to have a more "conventional" justice system, subject only to the usual constraints of a state of war.

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Reasons Lana deserve a kill option:

1 -Rishi -proving she can't actually be trusted.

2- Lana only cared about you so she could use you as a puppet to lead the Alliance. You make it very clear that you didn't want to lead the Alliance and she didn't really care. Lana only cares about what Lana wants.

3- Constantly threatening to kill Theron after Umbara, even though you've told her you trust him. I'm sorry, but if you made it VERY clear that you trust your LI and someone KEEPS saying they want to kill him when you find him, my less than perfect LS character will kill them before they do.

Also, Theron NEVER betrayed your trust. Everything he did was to protect you and the Alliance. He even told you WHY he couldn't tell you, but he was dropping clues for you the entire time.

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Kill off a character and you kill them for everyone. We've had enough of that. I was against a kill option for Theron because I didn't want other people to lose him. It would be nice if some of Theron's fans would be considerate of other fans and not want them to lose their LI, either.

 

But sure, let's kill off the only F/F love interest that has ever been in the game. It's not like that deserves any representation or the fact that there's only been one F/F romance in the entire game deserves any special consideration. It's not like those players/characters count. (edited out a sentence here on further reflection) /sarcasm

 

Talk to the right person, and they will give you a reason why ANY character deserves a kill option, and will feel completely justified. There's probably someone out there who can give three reasons why Blizz or T7 should die and would totally believe it. We all have characters we hate. I personally hate Theron's guts.

 

We shouldn't be taking any more LIs from anyone. Period. We know that when they are killed EVERYONE loses them. Why would you wish that on anyone? Because your hatred of a character should be enough to take them from everyone who loves them? We should be looking at ways to include them all more, and STOP Bioware from considering SWTOR to be Walking Dead or Game of Thrones where everyone needs to die.

Edited by IoNonSoEVero
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Kill off a character and you kill them for everyone. We've had enough of that. I was against a kill option for Theron because I didn't want other people to lose him. It would be nice if some of Theron's fans would be considerate of other fans and not want them to lose their LI, either.

 

But sure, let's kill off the only F/F love interest that has ever been in the game. It's not like that deserves any representation or the fact that there's only been one F/F romance in the entire game deserves any special consideration. It's not like those players/characters count. Only straight women and their male LIs count for anything . /sarcasm

 

I understand your frustration and I agree that people should stop asking for kill options for LIs, especially in light of fact that Lana is the only F/F option ... however Theron, Koth, and Arcann are all also M/M options and they are the only M/M options and they can all be killed (in Arcann's case he can be killed even before he becomes an LI option). Please stop with the "straight women and their male LIs" and consider that all M/M options are locked out of the story going forward.

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I understand your frustration and I agree that people should stop asking for kill options for LIs, especially in light of fact that Lana is the only F/F option ... however Theron, Koth, and Arcann are all also M/M options and they are the only M/M options and they can all be killed (in Arcann's case he can be killed even before he becomes an LI option). Please stop with the "straight women and their male LIs" and consider that all M/M options are locked out of the story going forward.

 

Thank you. No, they shouldn't have been killable either, and the overall erasure of LGBT representation from the story with their kill options and the single F/F is troubling. You're right that some of Theron's fans are M/M and that shouldn't be minimized any more than Lana's F/F fans, so I'll try to remember that and consider what I say more carefully in that respect.

 

Arcann I don't think should be considered the same way as Koth and Theron, though, simply because of the point that he was *not* a LI during KOTFE and KOTET or even a companion for most of KOTET. He was an adversary. The LI content with him came a full year after the end of the expansion. So it's not as though he was a LI or companion that had romance content and then was yanked from players; he was more of a Lord Praven type who showed up again after you saved him. I feel like that is less upsetting and jarring than the LIs like Theron who establish a rapport with the PC as companions with conversations and missions together, and then are killed off.

Edited by IoNonSoEVero
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When it comes to options to kill companions, i think it should be in there, but it needs to be specially selected, since like for example, some companions could play a big major part in a future expansion, but somehow won't in your story, since well...they are dead and that kills the story arc of the expansion.

 

This is the problem with kill options, it needs to be carefully picked, its like, i personally killed off Theron, cause he broke my trust and well i have a saying, 'hurt me once, shame on you, hurt me twice, shame on me.'

 

I just can't give people a second chance if they betray me so much that it hurts so much and since my female characters ALWAYS romance Lana, she just does it for me, i like her attitude, she is a sith, but not 'all must die' type, theron is not that much of a likeable character in my opinion.

 

So, i think LIs should have a kill option, as long as it makes bloody sense in the story and not because you find them annoying.

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1 -Rishi -proving she can't actually be trusted.

Fair enough. That was a douche move on her part, and you can remind her of that.

2- Lana only cared about you so she could use you as a puppet to lead the Alliance. You make it very clear that you didn't want to lead the Alliance and she didn't really care. Lana only cares about what Lana wants.

You don't really have a choice here, neither does Lana. You're the only one capable of leading the Alliance, she never uses you as a puppet. She'll certainly give you advice on how to proceed with any situation but whatever your decision she respects it and rolls with it.

3- Constantly threatening to kill Theron after Umbara, even though you've told her you trust him. I'm sorry, but if you made it VERY clear that you trust your LI and someone KEEPS saying they want to kill him when you find him, my less than perfect LS character will kill them before they do.

She's a Sith, what did you expect? Plus she does show regret over her actions during Nathema, even if you leave Theron to die she still expresses regret over it.

Also, Theron NEVER betrayed your trust. Everything he did was to protect you and the Alliance. He even told you WHY he couldn't tell you, but he was dropping clues for you the entire time.

Theron completely broke your trust, his actions might've been lead with good intentions but he still betrayed you nevertheless. He even says it himself, he needed to make the betrayal real... it's not something he's proud of obviously but he did it anyway because he considered it necessary.

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Thank you. No, they shouldn't have been killable either, and the overall erasure of LGBT representation from the story with their kill options and the single F/F is troubling. You're right that some of Theron's fans are M/M and that shouldn't be minimized any more than Lana's F/F fans, so I'll try to remember that and consider what I say more carefully in that respect.

 

Arcann I don't think should be considered the same way as Koth and Theron, though, simply because of the point that he was *not* a LI during KOTFE and KOTET or even a companion for most of KOTET. He was an adversary. The LI content with him came a full year after the end of the expansion. So it's not as though he was a LI or companion that had romance content and then was yanked from players; he was more of a Lord Praven type who showed up again after you saved him. I feel like that is less upsetting and jarring than the LIs like Theron who establish a rapport with the PC as companions with conversations and missions together, and then are killed off.

 

The problem with Arcann is exactly what you said though ... you could kill him long before you knew he could be a possible LI and you can't go back and undo it. Now is a little different - if you've already played through the story then you know what to expect. But people who are new or people who have avoided spoilers don't really know that until after the fact.

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The problem with Arcann is exactly what you said though ... you could kill him long before you knew he could be a possible LI and you can't go back and undo it. Now is a little different - if you've already played through the story then you know what to expect. But people who are new or people who have avoided spoilers don't really know that until after the fact.

 

True, and a fair point, but I don't know if those who would not be sympathetic enough toward Arcann to keep him alive in the first place would necessarily care about losing him as a LI later. I know the writer was pulling for Arcann but I don't think he was ever intended to be a LI until they responded to the writer/fan requests way after the fact

 

But Bioware has pulled a few 'gotcha' moves like that, and it's not really fair. I don't think every trooper who blew up the Spire knew that it would result in Elara Dorne leaving them almost two years later for instance. Or that Koth would leave the player over it, although he does give a lot of warning by letting the player know he's not happy about repeated attacks on civilians.

 

I suspect that leaving Theron to die might end up being that sort of flag with Lana, actually. Lana's not happy at all with the decision to leave him, and there's that moment where she stands there and it looks as though she might defy the player. Charles Boyd mentioned once that some player actions might prompt Lana to walk away later in the story, and that might have been Strike One.

Edited by IoNonSoEVero
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The problem isn't that we should or shouldn't kill off LIs, it's that BW needs to continue writing for characters even when in one dialogue tree they end up dead. Killing off LIs is fine. BW's lazy writing is not.

 

Concur in full. The human brain is complex enough and our ability to roleplay diverse enough that, frankly, I can come up with a completely legitimate reason to kill off any character.

 

The beauty of RP is that it offers a form of escapism from real life. Hopefully, in real life, most of us aren't bonkers crazy who would kill of a minion / companion for the slightest failure. In the game it can be fun. Hopefully, in real life, most of us would avoid dating Kaliyo, DS Jaesa, and Arcann (even with the redemption arc) types. In the game it can be fun.

 

The issue is whether characters, LI or not, can be written into the game in interesting ways. I get the point that if a LI companion has the potential to die, it likely means they will not play a prominent role in the main arc of the story. With that said, I can't think of any companion that is likely to figure prominently. The dialogue for all companions, LI or not, is pretty minimalistic at this point.

 

Point being: I have a strong sense that existing companions, whether LI or not, whether killable or not, will not play a starring role in 6.0. I'm agnostic on whether or not that is a good thing. It will depend on how well the writing is in 6.0 for the new characters, as well as the ones apparently being reintroduced (which I strongly doubt are existing class companions). My guess is they will introduce new companion options as well as new LI options.

 

And, if the precedent of 5.0 is any indication, gender identification won't matter.

 

Dasty

Edited by Jdast
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Thank you. No, they shouldn't have been killable either, and the overall erasure of LGBT representation from the story with their kill options and the single F/F is troubling. You're right that some of Theron's fans are M/M and that shouldn't be minimized any more than Lana's F/F fans, so I'll try to remember that and consider what I say more carefully in that respect.

You forget about Cytharat.

ALL of the M/M characters are able to be killed. So why not Lana?

Edited by Avashnea
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We just need to stop killing off LIs, period.

 

This. I don't care whether it is F/F, F/M, M/M, or M/F no romance characters should have been killed period since they couldn't figure out how to keep them alive for those that didn't kill them. The fault in that lays with the devs. They seem to forget not everyone is going to kill them but they allowed them to be killed with no thought to those of us that didn't kill them (whether or not we romanced them). They listen to the ones screaming KILL , KILL, and didn't figure out how to do the story for those of us that didn't want to kill them.

 

While I disliked Kailyo and I killed her on my agent I would never want her removed from someone else's story because of my actions. My story-Yes that is my choice and I take full responsibility for doing that but she should not have been removed from someone else's story.

Edited by casirabit
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You forget about Cytharat.

ALL of the M/M characters are able to be killed. So why not Lana?

 

No, I didn't forget him. Cytharat is a fling, not an actual romanceable companion.

 

Yeah, they could kill off everyone, and then what? Nobody has a LI anymore, and you get your missions from the gonk droid? Will that make the game better?

 

Killing a companion for one player = they're dead for everyone, which is the issue that has been discussed again and again. Hurting other players by erasing their LI/companion won't bring yours back. It will just hurt more players.

Edited by IoNonSoEVero
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I think they either need to completely remove the option to kill LIs or start treating all killable companions as though they can be and are still in the stoiy for some players. I think most rational people wouldn't care whether an LI could be killed if it didn't mean they lost interaction with that character in future stories. I really don't get along with Lana, but as long as kill options mean that the people who do like her would lose her as well, I absolutely refuse to support a kill option for her or any other LI.

 

As for Theron, I don't believe for a second that leaving him behind resulted in his death. Satele didn't look sad, she looked like a pissed mama who was gonna go get her boy. Boyd has even said he'll be in future story. I think his role will differ based on your choice, but I think he's going to be alive for everyone. I'm going with the GoT rule here, until you see absolute confirmation, a character is probably alive.

Edited by DuchessKristania
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I think they either need to completely remove the option to kill LIs or start treating all killable companions as though they can be and are still in the stoiy for some players. I think most rational people wouldn't care whether an LI could be killed if it didn't mean they lost interaction with that character in future stories. I really don't get along with Lana, but as long as kill options mean that the people who do like her would lose her as well, I absolutely refuse to support a kill option for her or any other LI.

 

As for Theron, I don't believe for a second that leaving him behind resulted in his death. Satele didn't look sad, she looked like a pissed mama who was gonna go get her boy. Boyd has even said he'll be in future story. I think his role will differ based on your choice, but I think he's going to be alive for everyone. I'm going with the GoT rule here, until you see absolute confirmation, a character is probably alive.

 

I'm going to stop reading/responding to this thread because it's just making me angry to see the 'kill Lana' thing come up AGAIN, but I think this post is excellent and sums it all up.

 

If kill options didn't affect every player, it would be a non-issue. In the class stories it didn't matter if a player killed off an NPC because they were still alive and had a part in the story for anyone else who wanted them there. But the problem is that Bioware's now apparently decided it's not worth writing or voicing any characters who are killable, so dead for one = dead for all, and that negatively impacts everyone's game.

 

I don't want other people's LIs bricked, and I don't want mine bricked either. Killing and bricking Companion C because Companion B was killed won't solve a thing.

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I swear the only reason this keeps popping up is that Lana is, from memory, the only LI presently left that has no kill option (so gone for everyone), no exile option or just plain leaves (for future story treated exactly the same as a kill), and not in an Alliance Alert (which has the exact same story treatment as a kill also).
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I agree with what most others have said that unless a companion is universally hated and it makes sense that everyone would make the same choice to kill that companion, there should be no kill option available because it otherwise forces a choice made by some players on other players who may not want to make the same choice.

 

As for Lana, I really don't understand why anyone would want to kill her off, and I find the justification provided by the OP to be some thinly veiled personal bias that is completely misplaced. Of all the Alliance related companions, the Sith turns out to be the most dedicated and loyal, despite her flaws. It's the Republic and Zakuul guys who end up betraying you. While they do so for two very different reasons, if we're being realistic about that, each of those cases warranted a different response. Some players chose to exile or kill them, others chose to forgive them. While we may not agree with each other about those choices, it's our choice to make. That said, if the OP has some burning hatred for Lana, justified or not, it's HIS choice to make, not mine, as long as it doesn't affect my game/story.

 

The point is, we're all emotional beings with varying degrees of emotional attachment to our companions in the story, and when making emotional choices, one is just as valid as the other. But it's neither right nor fair to force that choice on anyone else. If you were able to kill off a companion without it affecting anyone else, I'd support it. But as that is not the case in this game, a kill option should only be reserved for those NPCs who's death will be uncontested. And I for one would never kill off Lana, who I consider to be the most pragmatic and loyal Sith I've ever met in the game on any character.

Edited by Mournblood
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From my own observations over the last few years when this companion killing all began, I believe that if we see a character we like or are attached to being killed off I do believe it to be a natural reaction to become defensive and wonder why others we don't like aren't receiving the same treatment and so we'll strike out at other characters. Am I guilty of this, yeah I probably am. It's a vicious circle the Dev's started by killing off companions that has no end, for every new character we get from now on there will be a matching "why can't we kill x" thread. We'll no longer appreciate new characters because we've become so obsessed with killing them off and be waiting for this to happen so won't be as attached to them as older companions.
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TL-DR: I do not have a monolithic view of Lana in game. Ergo, choices are best.

 

Unless the character is integral to the arc of the main story, I will always side with the option to give the player the most choices available. In the context of this thread, while I as <<insert real life name>> have a perspective on Lana, my characters have wide-ranging ones because I take my respective alts interactions with companions seriously, and I enjoy the variation from an RP perspective. Hence, on different characters:

 

A) I have a M / F romance with Lana.

 

B) I have a F / F romance with Lana.

 

C) I have one who views her as incompetent and can't forgive what she did to Theron on Rishi. She wants to abandon her.

 

D) I have one who hates her bossiness and doesn't appreciate her snappy comebacks and questioning my orders. And given the pathos of this character, he would kill her in a heartbeat, particularly given her inability to notice a spy under her nose on Ziost when she was Minister of Intelligence.

 

E) I have one who doesn't romance her, but puts her on a pedestal for her tactical prowess.

 

F) A whole bunch of others who appreciate her help, but are neutral on her because they are romancing others.

 

If she is destined just to become another companion, my choices do not impact anyone. I know this is a sensitive subject for some, but if she is destined to become another Vector or Mako, or Quinn or Vette, then I see no harm in allowing a kill or abandon option.

 

Why? Because the writers have already abandoned her as a narrator / integral character in the main story. As that applies now to only Theron and Lana, the question becomes -- why give them such primacy? As such, let her be like any other normal companion. And when you arrive at that conclusion -- the more choices the better.

 

As a proud member of the LGBT community, I get the argument that she is the only F/F companion. There should be more. As a G member of that community (though I howled when someone a year back or so called me a Gammorean) , we have three (though, frankly, the Koth one is hardly worth mentioning it's so trivial). That does not mean, however, that she and Theron have to dominate the next expansion like they did in 4.0 and 5.0. And, hopefully, they will introduce more F/F options.

 

I would also note that the option of killing off a character does not preclude future interaction. Exhibit A: Arcann (who actually gets a nod in Nathema FP assuming you didn't kill him).

 

But as others have noted, I too got a bit tired of 4.0 and 5.0 being so Lana and Theron-centric. I actually wasn't Alliance Commander -- they were. Let me bring my own companions, even if that means RP-ing in my head.

 

Dasty

Edited by Jdast
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I cannot think of any reason to kill off Lana that isn't pure contrivance although anything's possible with how this last vestigial thread of Legends lore is tumbling through the vortex of low budgeting and IP gatekeeper (Disney) disrespect. Chances are something that weighs too heavily on her conscience will be a player choice in this next expansion cycle to scratch that itch just because it would constitute a cheap dramatic hook to try and catch a few more players.

 

And I'm not a fan of BA dropping narratives for characters that can die either, but at the same time it's amusingly disturbing how much emotion is wasted on video game romance. Seriously, try getting some culture and reading actual literature out there or if that's too boring play something built around vicarious relationship with cold nonreciprocal software like a visual novel. That Bioware's love stories are a draw to some people has always struck me funny. They're cornier than the paperback romance novellas sold near the checkout kiosks at Wal-Mart marketed toward menopausal cat moms to go with their ice cream.

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My Sith Warrioress always wanted to kill Lana, that dumb blonde. Gold medal for dumb blonde who requests that the Emperor's Loyal Wrath betray her own Master. That's like the last person you should ask. Guess she knew she had plot armor on. And what, she thinks she is safe because he ended up betraying my Warrioress and is no longer present? Wrong. My Warrioress still has a bone to pick with Darth Vowran for deceiving her on Rishi. It would be no fair to him if he was disposed of for the same reasons but not Lana. I like how he hasn't shown his face since that incident. Probably knew I was going after him after he made me kill my daddy Emperor's protective spy agents, who were just there to look after me.

 

I was going to forgive Lana after Valk betrayed my Wrath, for obvious reasons, but ...I don't know. My Warrioress no longer bows down to others. It's high time any potential threat is exterminated. Even you, Jaesa, if you've forgotten your place after all this time.

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