After reading a few sarcasm threads, and even a few troll threads, it occurs to me that people are looking to get more and more handed to them as preferred players, but not really willing to make any concessions in the other direction. As a sub, I am not looking for a concession either way. I find great value in my monthly sub, and still continue to spend between $200-$400 additional each month at the CM.

 

So, I have to wonder, how vested are players who are getting everything for free and still complaining about it, and demanding more? Would we improve the quality of the players we interact with if "Free" were not an option? If players had to pay to play, would they spend more time playing and less time trolling/whining/complaining? Sometimes being truly serious about something only comes with being invested in said item. When there is no initial investment, there is really nothing to lose.

 

Just some late night ramblings. Had me curious was all.

200-400$ a month, jeez!😱

200-400$ a month, jeez!😱

 

I quit drinking in 2007, stopped doing recreational weed in 2004, gave up smoking in 2015. I have no wife, no kids, house is paid for, truck is paid for, and own my own business. I don't fish, hunt, or collect, so SWTOR is really the ONLY hobby I have outside of woodworking and my dogs. I figure, "This is my bar tab."

I quit drinking in 2007, stopped doing recreational weed in 2004, gave up smoking in 2015. I have no wife, no kids, house is paid for, truck is paid for, and own my own business. I don't fish, hunt, or collect, so SWTOR is really the ONLY hobby I have outside of woodworking and my dogs. I figure, "This is my bar tab."

 

Whoa, those are some positive life changes! Good on you.👌 I wasn't judging, just a bit surprised!

Whoa, those are some positive life changes! Good on you.👌 I wasn't judging, just a bit surprised!

 

No worries I appreciate the encouragement. Took me awhile to get myself completely back on track. Mostly I like to explain why I spend the way I do. Everyone has expenses, hobbies, or both. I am fortunate the my expenses are minimal, my income is above avg, and this is really the only game I play anymore. So I figure if a new mount, a lvl 70 boost for another character, some gear, or just random packs gives me additional enjoyment then so be it

 

My sizable investment in the game is what makes me appreciate it more than most and keeps me coming back month after month since resubbing. I finally walked away from WoW, Rift, LotRO, Overwatch, and just about every other major game. Even my XBox One no longer holds my interest, nor my PS4. I may just end up selling them if I don't use them soon.

F2P was brought in back in 2012 to save the game from sinking like the Titanic. Really I am not exaggerating, the situation of the game was quite dire and one of the slogans that took hold was that this game wasn't worth the sub. People basically said they'd play it if they didn't have to pay for it and that Bioware needed to improve the game a lot before it became worth a sub to them.

 

So Bioware did two rounds of server merges in a short time span, introduced F2P and the Cartel Market. It kept the game alive. However, I see it as a necessary evil that I much prefer would've never been needed. Also Bioware advertises the game as an F2P game but it isn't. It's a rather extended trial but the game is hardly F2P. It's still a sub game and F2P do not get all the content. A true F2P account that is created today will take you to level 50 and that's it. If you sub and get all content and unsub, you do no longer have access to endgame.

 

So as much as I would like F2P to be removed, because it's got certain advantages, I do not think that it's a wise move for a game that barely has enough players to warrant 5 servers worldwide.

 

I think it's clear that the combination of GC and making endgame sub only (which it wasn't before when you had ops and warzone passes) sealed the need to do the server merges we just had a couple of months ago.

 

So does the idea of a sub only game appeal to me? Yes.

Do I believe this game will die the moment they remove F2P? Also yes.

 

A necessary evil therefore.

Would we improve the quality of the players we interact with if "Free" were not an option? If players had to pay to play, would they spend more time playing and less time trolling/whining/complaining? Sometimes being truly serious about something only comes with being invested in said item. When there is no initial investment, there is really nothing to lose.

 

The thing about paying customers (especially subscribers) is the feeling of entitlement. Some feel like their $15 a month is what keeps the game alive, and so they can get away with trolling/whining/complaining without repercussions since the game needs them too much to ban them.

 

As for removing F2P, that hasn't been a viable MMO option for over a decade now. People have too many games to choose from, and not only do you have to compete with other MMO's, you have to compete with other games as well. A fun and inviting F2P experience is essential to the longevity of an MMO.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Eli_Porter

The thing about paying customers (especially subscribers) is the feeling of entitlement.

especiall surbscribers, so you also mean people who spend money in the CM then.

Some feel like their $15 a month is what keeps the game alive,

So it's odd that you now suddenly single out subbers and not people who are also paying customers via the CM.

and so they can get away with trolling/whining/complaining without repercussions since the game needs them too much to ban them.

I think that is an unnecessary comment here but if that's the truth then apparently they're right. Personally I think they just push to see how far they can go because they know Bioware doesn't have the manpower to monitor things, not because they feel safe as a sub.

 

So just a question. Is this your opinion of the OP that he is a troll/whiner/complainer or is this just a frustration you couldn't keep in and had to throw in here?

especiall surbscribers, so you also mean people who spend money in the CM then.

So it's odd that you now suddenly single out subbers and not people who are also paying customers via the CM.

 

If you spend money on the CM you're far less likely to complain about the game. CM spenders usually defend the game rather than go after it, as they have way more invested.

 

I think that is an unnecessary comment here but if that's the truth then apparently they're right. Personally I think they just push to see how far they can go because they know Bioware doesn't have the manpower to monitor things, not because they feel safe as a sub.

 

There's nothing wrong with complaining as a paying customer. However some people make make it their hobby to complain about the game and berate Eric/Keith at every turn by using "you need me you can't silence me" as a shield.

 

So just a question. Is this your opinion of the OP that he is a troll/whiner/complainer or is this just a frustration you couldn't keep in and had to throw in here?

 

I can't see how I implied that?

Edited January 16, 2018 by Eli_Porter

If you spend money on the CM you're far less likely to complain about the game. CM spenders usually defend the game rather than go after it, as they have way more invested.

Then I don't understand why you brought them up to begin with, albeit indirectly.

There's nothing wrong with complaining as a paying customer. However some people make make it their hobby to complain about the game and berate Eric/Keith at every turn by using "you need me you can't silence me" as a shield.

So how is that relevant here in a thread about the value of F2P?

I can't see how I implied that?

Well I wondered why you brought it up in this thread and those were the only two reasons I could think of. You tell me.

The reality of MMo's today is that you need the f2p players to fill out the ranks for group content like ops and pvp enough for the whales to continue to drop a mint in the cash shop. I personally would personally prefer where all the content was 'free', but convenience items, races, and cosmetics were sub, cash shop only. It would maximize the people playing, but still provide rewards to the people paying for the game.

Then I don't understand why you brought them up to begin with, albeit indirectly.

 

I wondered why you brought it up in this thread and those were the only two reasons I could think of. You tell me.

 

I didn't, I was talking about paying customers in a broad sense. This doesn't only apply to this game, this is how paying customers can be like. Whether it be at a restaurant, a tech support center or an online game.

 

So if I were to re-write it to make it more clear, it would be "Paying customers are often entitled. In this game it's subscribers in particular".

 

So how is that relevant here in a thread about the value of F2P?

 

This thread is about removing F2P by using "it'll be less toxic" as a reasoning. My counter to that is that P2P players can be just as toxic.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Eli_Porter

The reality of MMo's today is that you need the f2p players to fill out the ranks for group content like ops and pvp enough for the whales to continue to drop a mint in the cash shop. I personally would personally prefer where all the content was 'free', but convenience items, races, and cosmetics were sub, cash shop only. It would maximize the people playing, but still provide rewards to the people paying for the game.

 

F2P or Preffs are not allowed into OPS so thats not valid. They can go into FPS, but F2P only the 10-50 FPS and Preff players can go to all if they were subs before, so thats a limit there too. I dont really know how many F2P or Preff I get into my group but its definitely not any significant amount as I always play the newest content so I dont see that much how this "fills the groups"

 

In the past when lvl 50 was max, maybe, but not anymore.

After reading a few sarcasm threads, and even a few troll threads, it occurs to me that people are looking to get more and more handed to them as preferred players, but not really willing to make any concessions in the other direction. As a sub, I am not looking for a concession either way. I find great value in my monthly sub, and still continue to spend between $200-$400 additional each month at the CM.

 

So, I have to wonder, how vested are players who are getting everything for free and still complaining about it, and demanding more? Would we improve the quality of the players we interact with if "Free" were not an option? If players had to pay to play, would they spend more time playing and less time trolling/whining/complaining? Sometimes being truly serious about something only comes with being invested in said item. When there is no initial investment, there is really nothing to lose.

 

Just some late night ramblings. Had me curious was all.

 

prefs and f2p once had access to operations by a cm pass, but with the arrival of GC the ops was taken from pref players and both pref and f2p'ers are more restricted than they have ever been since. you tell me if you think it is fair that pref players get put on the scrapheap?

 

your entitlement of being a sub and ignoring the f2p base, how would it work after you kicked them all out and only a few subs are left along with the few whales? do you think the game would survive that?

 

all i am saying is that what you are suggesting would instantly kill this game. some concessions are needed for sure and holding the position of considering those of a different status as scum isn't helping your case.

F2P was brought in back in 2012 to save the game from sinking like the Titanic. Really I am not exaggerating, the situation of the game was quite dire and one of the slogans that took hold was that this game wasn't worth the sub. People basically said they'd play it if they didn't have to pay for it and that Bioware needed to improve the game a lot before it became worth a sub to them.

 

So Bioware did two rounds of server merges in a short time span, introduced F2P and the Cartel Market. It kept the game alive. However, I see it as a necessary evil that I much prefer would've never been needed. Also Bioware advertises the game as an F2P game but it isn't. It's a rather extended trial but the game is hardly F2P. It's still a sub game and F2P do not get all the content. A true F2P account that is created today will take you to level 50 and that's it. If you sub and get all content and unsub, you do no longer have access to endgame.

 

So as much as I would like F2P to be removed, because it's got certain advantages, I do not think that it's a wise move for a game that barely has enough players to warrant 5 servers worldwide.

 

I think it's clear that the combination of GC and making endgame sub only (which it wasn't before when you had ops and warzone passes) sealed the need to do the server merges we just had a couple of months ago.

 

So does the idea of a sub only game appeal to me? Yes.

Do I believe this game will die the moment they remove F2P? Also yes.

 

A necessary evil therefore.

 

As you said it was necessary but "back then". Its not necessary now! I mean what do you get as F2P? You get 4 character slots and can do Class story, 10-50 FPS and GSF. Based on what content you do you may never ever encounter a F2P person! I do ops, ranked pvp and the newest FPS, F2P dont have access to that. I always said that F2P do have access to WAY TOO MUCH content in this game.

 

As a F2P the player does not buy anything from the CM ofc so there is virtually no profit from this player to be made. The only thing there is, is that he could sub since he would become tired of the restrictions. However if you have a player that doesnt mind and has a LOT of time (cause credit gain and xp gain are slower) Bioware will never make any money from him.

 

So technically F2P can be removed now, its only purpose is to make people sub, but that also encourages them to sub only once since then you get all the access and can unsub, farm credits, buy unlocks and continue Preffered for the rest of the game. So Bioware should check their metrics whether F2P actually sub or not, if the number is insignificant they can think about cancelling F2P as it will not have an impact on the game. Sure you lose ppl that play the game for free but they also dont contribute to the game anyway!

all i am saying is that what you are suggesting would instantly kill this game. some concessions are needed for sure and holding the position of considering those of a different status as scum isn't helping your case.

 

Kill in what way? He said remove F2P not Preffered players. If F2P disappear the only places you would notice is Veteran mode 10-50 FPS, fleet, class story planets and GSF. They also dont contribute to maintaining the game with purchases via CM.

Kill in what way? He said remove F2P not Preffered players. If F2P disappear the only places you would notice is Veteran mode 10-50 FPS, fleet, class story planets and GSF. They also dont contribute to maintaining the game with purchases via CM.

 

swtor depends on the entire f2p base.

swtor depends on the entire f2p base.

 

Again, in what way? I just told you that you hardly encounter F2P ppl in your endgame content. UNLESS as i said that a huge number of F2P eventually swap to Premium and stay premium for long, but this is something we dont see and only Bioware knows.

Again, in what way? I just told you that you hardly encounter F2P ppl in your endgame content. UNLESS as i said that a huge number of F2P eventually swap to Premium and stay premium for long, but this is something we dont see and only Bioware knows.

 

I think there was this article about how important free players were. It was linked on the forums somewhere a while ago.,🤔

Again, in what way? I just told you that you hardly encounter F2P ppl in your endgame content. UNLESS as i said that a huge number of F2P eventually swap to Premium and stay premium for long, but this is something we dont see and only Bioware knows.

 

it's not just end game content. i'm not picking up the ball after every play here.

The thing about paying customers (especially subscribers) is the feeling of entitlement. Some feel like their $15 a month is what keeps the game alive, and so they can get away with trolling/whining/complaining without repercussions since the game needs them too much to ban them.

 

As for removing F2P, that hasn't been a viable MMO option for over a decade now. People have too many games to choose from, and not only do you have to compete with other MMO's, you have to compete with other games as well. A fun and inviting F2P experience is essential to the longevity of an MMO.

 

Except for Final Fantasy, which never has and never will have a F2P option.

As you said it was necessary but "back then". Its not necessary now! I mean what do you get as F2P? You get 4 character slots and can do Class story, 10-50 FPS and GSF. Based on what content you do you may never ever encounter a F2P person! I do ops, ranked pvp and the newest FPS, F2P dont have access to that. I always said that F2P do have access to WAY TOO MUCH content in this game.

 

As a F2P the player does not buy anything from the CM ofc so there is virtually no profit from this player to be made. The only thing there is, is that he could sub since he would become tired of the restrictions. However if you have a player that doesnt mind and has a LOT of time (cause credit gain and xp gain are slower) Bioware will never make any money from him.

 

So technically F2P can be removed now, its only purpose is to make people sub, but that also encourages them to sub only once since then you get all the access and can unsub, farm credits, buy unlocks and continue Preffered for the rest of the game. So Bioware should check their metrics whether F2P actually sub or not, if the number is insignificant they can think about cancelling F2P as it will not have an impact on the game. Sure you lose ppl that play the game for free but they also dont contribute to the game anyway!

I don't share your optimism I'm afraid. There are still a good number of F2P players and your assumption that they don't spend any or much money on the cartel market is also just that...an assumption. Some people care about cosmetics but not endgame.

 

I fear that the population has become so small now that cutting out F2P entirely could be a problem for the population and feel of the servers. I don't see it as a viable idea to cut it out cause it would harm this game too much at this stage.

 

They could've done things a few years ago but that ship has sailed I fear.

Recently started playing, after about 2 years break. I got through all the content released in the past 2 years in 2 weeks of moderate play. In 2+ years all they managed to release is 1 universal storyline much shorter than any of the original class stories, few flashpoints and 2 raid bosses. 2 raid bosses in over 2 years!

 

Remind me now what exactly are we subscribing for?

Recently started playing, after about 2 years break. I got through all the content released in the past 2 years in 2 weeks of moderate play. In 2+ years all they managed to release is 1 universal storyline much shorter than any of the original class stories, few flashpoints and 2 raid bosses. 2 raid bosses in over 2 years!

 

Remind me now what exactly are we subscribing for?

 

Well...for the entire last year you can do the content in 1-2 days so you are in luck, you could actially play something new for 2 weeks.

First, Superman_AZ, if you're making this assessment based upon forum post that you're reading, of F2P and Pref people asking for things, then you really don't understand the imitations on F2P/Pref accounts. (Hint: It's not F2P or Pref people making those threads). Subscribers can be, and many often are, some of the most entitled and trollish people in this game.

 

With regard to the suggestion to remove F2P and the clarification that we're talking about F2P and not Pref, to some Sub's there is no distinction whatsoever. If you're not paying a monthly subscription then you are a leech. It is a fallacy to assume that when someone plays Pref they are not contributing anything monetarily to the game. Speaking anecdotally, I know that I will often buy CC's when I'm not subbed. I have spoken to other Pref's who do the same. I have no data, and will make no claim to data, regarding how much money Pref's spend on CC's, but to claim that they contribute nothing monetarily to the game, as some on these forums have suggested, is patently false. But, because the CM has such a dearth of content unlocks most of that money is used for cosmetic items. That is the true failing of this games F2P model.

 

Now to the actual question of removing F2P entirely. That's a bad business decision. Let's use some fictitious numbers. Let's say 100 people play F2P (meaning they have contributed not a single cent to the game). Of those 100 people, 1 subscribes. That's money for the game. You remove F2P and that's 100 people who don't play, were never going to pay, and 1 person who doesn't subscribe. In the grand scheme F2P people add more to the game than they remove. Yes, they have server access, but that's about it. If they're removed then BW loses the potential for their subs. Conversion rate can be very small and it still be a better financial decision to allow them to play.

 

On the topic of Pref accounts, since you can't really have a conversation about the F2P model and not include them. Many people, primarily subscribers on these forums in my experience, think that Pref players are just people who sub for a month and then never pay another cent to the game. That is simply not true. Many Pref players convert between Sub and Pref frequently. Many Pref players buy CC's. Do they, on an individual basis, contribute as much as a 12-month, non-reoccurring subscription (that's $14.99*12) that doesn't buy CC's? Probably not. But then, it could be argued that that 12-month, non-reoccurring sub contributes more than a semi-annual, non-CC buying sub ($77.94*2). $24 more to be exact.

 

OP, I have encountered your type in every MMO with a F2P model I have played. Your statement, and monetary amount, may be accurate, I'm not questioning that, but in every case there has been at least one who claims that they support the game with multiple hundreds of dollars of purchases in the microtransaction store who proposes that the F2P player is the problem. In most of those cases those are games that did not start with a F2P model, but converted to F2P from a subscriber only model. If there were more of you maybe SWTOR never would have become F2P. But the F2P model is here, and it's here for a reason, and that reason is because there weren't enough people paying each month to support the game. Now, whether that situation has continued none of us can say; although the paucity of content suggests something is awry. The reasons for the current state of the game are likely varied, and I'll not add any more hyperbolic speculation to that discussion, but I very much doubt that the problem are too many F2P people.