I know they are they are there for diplomatic or sage like abilities or their outstanding character but they should learn how to fight besides Satele and of course JC they suck at combat they lose to sith lords not even Darth's and in some cases apprentices. They are the leader of the order they should be a example and that includes combat abilities especially in time of war,

What do you all think?

I know they are they are there for diplomatic or sage like abilities or their outstanding character but they should learn how to fight besides Satele and of course JC they suck at combat they lose to sith lords not even Darth's and in some cases apprentices. They are the leader of the order they should be a example and that includes combat abilities especially in time of war,

What do you all think?

Examples please?

Orgus Din who lost against him former apprentice that became a dark jedi and who was defeated by the hero with a training sword.

Bela Kiwiiks lost against Lord Praven and again later against sith assassins on Corelia.

Besides them most did not do a thing to prove that they are weak or strong.

"wars do not make one great" - Yoda.

the jedi chooses their leaders for wisdom and insight, not how bad *** with a lightsaber they are. I mean exhibit A. as he has been appointed battleamaster of the Jedi order, the Jedi Knight is proably one of the most potent skilled warriors in the Jedi order. he's never been granted a council position

also dark council members have been killed too. thing is any council member of eaither side we kill is NOT a council member being "punked by some lowly lord" our characters are some of the most powerful/skilled characters in the universe

"wars do not make one great" - Yoda.

 

the jedi chooses their leaders for wisdom and insight, not how bad *** with a lightsaber they are. I mean exhibit A. as he has been appointed battlemaster of the Jedi order, the Jedi Knight is proably one of the most potent skilled warriors in the Jedi order. he's never been granted a council position

But should they not learn how to fight? Also JK is one of the most potent warrior in the Jedi order as confirmed by the grandmaster and his title of battlemaster, I would have even said the most potent if JC was not part of the order also.

For what reason Mace Windu became part of the council?

@Above there is a reason I gave the examples I gave because they lost against not the heroes and low lords and whatever that are not any of the heroes.

But should they not learn how to fight? Also JK is one of the most potent warrior in the Jedi order as confirmed by the grandmaster and his title of battlemaster, I would have even said the most potent if JC was not part of the order also.

For what reason Mace Windu became part of the council?

@Above there is a reason I gave the examples I gave because they lost against not the heroes and low lords and whatever that are not any of the heroes.

Because he was as wise as he was skilled.

The Knight is skilled but unwise.

The Consular is wise and skilled - but not in martial combat so much as the mysteries of the Force. Most of the Jedi masters are of this sort. Satele is only highly skilled martially because she was forced to learn to be.

Orgus Din who lost against him former apprentice that became a dark jedi and who was defeated by the hero with a training sword.

Bela Kiwiiks lost against Lord Praven and again later against sith assassins on Corelia.

Besides them most did not do a thing to prove that they are weak or strong.

Number one: Bengal Morr (Orgus's former apprentice) Was EXTREMELY POWERFUL and surprised Orgus. The Hero of Tython is a powerhouse, and an expert duelist even at this time.

Number two: Kiwiiks lost against a Lord, but an extremely powerful one. I don't see why this matters.

Number three: A group of Sith Assassins is gonna take down a Jedi, lol.

Orgus Din who lost against him former apprentice that became a dark jedi and who was defeated by the hero with a training sword.

Bela Kiwiiks lost against Lord Praven and again later against sith assassins on Corelia.

Besides them most did not do a thing to prove that they are weak or strong.

a lot of the councils members achievements aren't exactly mentioned directly in game

Oteg

Fleet Admiral

Jaric Kaedan

Capturing of Dread Masters

Battle of Rhen Var

Battle of Ilum

Tol Braga

Launched an attack on the Emperor

Syo Bakarn

Battle of Rhen Var

Bela Kiwiiks

Battle of Rhen Var

Gnost-Dural

Battle of Eliad

Skirmish on Bothawui

Though much of there achievements are never fully explained or mentioned

I understand your point as well

Because he was as wise as he was skilled.

 

The Knight is skilled but unwise.

 

The Consular is wise and skilled - but not in martial combat so much as the mysteries of the Force.

How was he ever unwise at least more unwise then other council members that are not the Consular?

But that is not the thing should they still not learn how to fight?

Number one: Bengal Morr (Orgus's former apprentice) Was EXTREMELY POWERFUL and surprised Orgus. The Hero of Tython is a powerhouse, and an expert duelist even at this time.

 

Number two: Kiwiiks lost against a Lord, but an extremely powerful one. I don't see why this matters.

 

Number three: A group of Sith Assassins is gonna take down a Jedi, lol.

A training sword you know build for training so not deadly like a lightsaber which well what the JK was against.

It matters because he was a Lord a simple Lord among quite a few that where apprentices of Angral. He was really nothing special.

It matters because he was a Lord a simple Lord among quite a few that where apprentices of Angral. He was really nothing special.

Then I guess he was special

How was he ever unwise at least more unwise then other council members that are not the Consular?

But that is not the thing should they still not learn how to fight?

 

 

 

 

A training sword you know build for training so not deadly like a lightsaber which well what the JK was against.

It matters because he was a Lord a simple Lord among quite a few that where apprentices of Angral. He was really nothing special.

Praven's codex has him as one of the best saber duelists in the galaxy. It's the only thing he does but fighting him at it is stupid.

council members coming to a certain point in their lives are unable to do what they would of done a few decades earlier, their reactions are not what they should be, i recount a jedi who you visit on balmorra and the doc is there as well. this jedi looks very old but he still serves, he mentions his reactions are not good enough to handle droids any more, its also the same for members of the dark council, vowrawn doesnt have the ability to fight like he once did, hes more an old borderline dottering mad man like spindrall. it could be really telling that even the wise old council will be unable to stand upto the most ferocious battle droids if enough of them are around and the council members are reaching this point in their lives. but a really skilled sith who knows fighting would be more then a match for any one of the council.

the council are not made up of the most powerful force users, but the acts they performed and how wise they are, the jedi serve for peace where possible but fight when needed. jedi fighting is more mundane through training as there are no terrifying k'lor slugs attempting to bite your head off, or armed tomb robbers or ruthless teachers in the academy, you also got renegade sith acolytes and rebel slaves and soldiers. with a very stimulating training envionment like that, you wonder why the sith are much better at fighting from the go. jedi are always in catch up mode until they are not.

Examples please?

Ok Anakin was said to have 17,000 Midichlorians in his body. Yoda was thought to have about 21,000 Midichlorians, one would suspect that per Normal 8,000 to 25,000 Midichlorians is the base rate for both Sith and Jedi Player NPCs as well as Player Characters in the whole of Star Wars: TOR. You got to fall back on the death of Obi-Wan General Ben Kenobi for the yardstick. Though he wanted to die to become an Another Sky Ghost in an effort to help Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa Solo as best he could that is why Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker fought and killed him so easily as his bywords at his death in Vader's hands were, "If you strike me down Lord Vader I will only grow more impossiably stronger in the force than you can imagine."

council members coming to a certain point in their lives are unable to do what they would of done a few decades earlier, their reactions are not what they should be, i recount a jedi who you visit on balmorra and the doc is there as well. this jedi looks very old but he still serves, he mentions his reactions are not good enough to handle droids any more, its also the same for members of the dark council, vowrawn doesnt have the ability to fight like he once did, hes more an old borderline dottering mad man like spindrall. it could be really telling that even the wise old council will be unable to stand upto the most ferocious battle droids if enough of them are around and the council members are reaching this point in their lives. but a really skilled sith who knows fighting would be more then a match for any one of the council.

 

the council are not made up of the most powerful force users, but the acts they performed and how wise they are, the jedi serve for peace where possible but fight when needed. jedi fighting is more mundane through training as there are no terrifying k'lor slugs attempting to bite your head off, or armed tomb robbers or ruthless teachers in the academy, you also got renegade sith acolytes and rebel slaves and soldiers. with a very stimulating training envionment like that, you wonder why the sith are much better at fighting from the go. jedi are always in catch up mode until they are not.

Celise, certainly agreed. From the Sith Slave Pens then in becomming a Dark Lord of the Sith Council you must fight with your Sith Magic in the Force and with your lightsabers or you will get killed. Agreed muchly, the Sith Training is meant to handle just about anything, including some long dead former Emperor that gets into your mind as a Force Ghost while he pretends to try to help you.

Ok Anakin was said to have 17,000 Midichlorians in his body. Yoda was thought to have about 21,000 Midichlorians, one would suspect that per Normal 8,000 to 25,000 Midichlorians is the base rate for both Sith and Jedi Player NPCs as well as Player Characters in the whole of Star Wars: TOR. You got to fall back on the death of Obi-Wan General Ben Kenobi for the yardstick. Though he wanted to die to become an Another Sky Ghost in an effort to help Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa Solo as best he could that is why Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker fought and killed him so easily as his bywords at his death in Vader's hands were, "If you strike me down Lord Vader I will only grow more impossiably stronger in the force than you can imagine."

In episode 1 anakin was revealed to have an even higher "count" than yoda. When he became darth vader he lost nearly half his power due to horrific injuries to his body.

This isn't unique to the Jedi. Plenty of Sith get taken down by nobodies too. Several of the Dark Council members are killed during the game for example, and potentially at the hands of a smuggler or Havoc squad commando operating nearly alone. You also run across at least one Sith on Voss who gets fatally wounded by the wildlife.

It is one of the flaws with how the game was written and designed. Jedi and Sith enemies should have only been used sparingly as enemies, and only as boss encounters. Dark Council or Jedi Council members should only have died during the Jedi or Sith class missions or in Flashpoints where it canonically took a team of people to take them down. Non-force users should have had force using opponents in their class stories limited to an end boss, either for a chapter, or the entire class story, and for cutscene magic to imply they used their wits to take them down rather than in a straight up fight.

Force users also shouldn't have been killed by weak NPCs, like that Sith who gets mauled to death by an animal.

This isn't unique to the Jedi. Plenty of Sith get taken down by nobodies too. Several of the Dark Council members are killed during the game for example, and potentially at the hands of a smuggler or Havoc squad commando operating nearly alone. You also run across at least one Sith on Voss who gets fatally wounded by the wildlife.

 

It is one of the flaws with how the game was written and designed. Jedi and Sith enemies should have only been used sparingly as enemies, and only as boss encounters. Dark Council or Jedi Council members should only have died during the Jedi or Sith class missions or in Flashpoints where it canonically took a team of people to take them down. Non-force users should have had force using opponents in their class stories limited to an end boss, either for a chapter, or the entire class story, and for cutscene magic to imply they used their wits to take them down rather than in a straight up fight.

 

Force users also shouldn't have been killed by weak NPCs, like that Sith who gets mauled to death by an animal.

What do you think they are gods living among mortals? No their mortals also sure they can use telekinesis, lighting and things like that. But their still mortals and most sith and jedi can not do more then some weak TK and lighting that can be at most distracting or a little dangerous even for a non force user. Most of them have precog and a passive force shield which is not useful against a blaster or a vibroknife in your neck with some rare TK feats if they have enough time to focus which you have to be stupid to give them.

By the way the smuggler and the trooper are the best of the best in their profession.

Number one: Bengal Morr (Orgus's former apprentice) Was EXTREMELY POWERFUL and surprised Orgus. The Hero of Tython is a powerhouse, and an expert duelist even at this time.

 

Number two: Kiwiiks lost against a Lord, but an extremely powerful one. I don't see why this matters.

 

Number three: A group of Sith Assassins is gonna take down a Jedi, lol.

From what I understood of the story, Orgus Din did not want to fight or kill Bengal Morr. Bengal Morr was a Jedi who was simply suffering from severe PTSD because of the war. Besides that, in KOTFE, it is revealed that the Jedi Knight(latest chapter) is the most powerful Jedi to ever exist.

From what I understood of the story, Orgus Din did not want to fight or kill Bengal Morr. Bengal Morr was a Jedi who was simply suffering from severe PTSD because of the war. Besides that, in KOTFE, it is revealed that the Jedi Knight(latest chapter) is the most powerful Jedi to ever exist.

That's said about the Knight alone? Not the Consular at all?

That's said about the Knight alone? Not the Consular at all?

Yeah only the knight? That being said its not that big of a deal considering that besides the Consular and of course Revan the previous jedi we know of where not very impressive not that there weak but you know not compared with these 3 of course Exar Kun and Ulic may be but probably it was refered to only the time they where jedi so their power is compared with them as jedi.

Still is it only the knight?

a lot of the councils members achievements aren't exactly mentioned directly in game

 

Oteg

Fleet Admiral

 

Jaric Kaedan

Capturing of Dread Masters

Battle of Rhen Var

Battle of Ilum

 

Tol Braga

Launched an attack on the Emperor

 

Syo Bakarn

Battle of Rhen Var

 

Bela Kiwiiks

Battle of Rhen Var

 

Gnost-Dural

Battle of Eliad

Skirmish on Bothawui

 

 

Though much of there achievements are never fully explained or mentioned

I understand your point as well

I always wondered how TF Kaeden could've defeated all 6 Dread Masters when we the PC's needed an ops group to do so, and yet little old keaden, who is supposed to be a sort of TOR Windu, is a measly little elite that the very same PC's (who needed an ops group to beat the Dread Masters) can easily solo on Ilum. That has never made any sense to me at all...is there anyone who can explain it?

What would be the purpose of the Jedi council being the best fighters? They aren't meant to be fighters they're meant to be leaders. Some are good fighters also but their fighting ability isn't why they're on the council. These are people who make the plans and rules for the rest of the jedi, not a spec-ops group. You don't expect senators to be elite fighters do you? The dark council is made up of the strongest sith rather than the wisest and best leaders and look what good that does the Empire.

You mean like returning from the edges of the galaxy and almost wiping the Republic from its face if not for Revan saving the republic, this time through subtly influencing Vitiate's mind? Yeah having the strongest Sith in charge has just done ****-all for the imps. Totally.

This isn't unique to the Jedi. Plenty of Sith get taken down by nobodies too. Several of the Dark Council members are killed during the game for example, and potentially at the hands of a smuggler or Havoc squad commando operating nearly alone. You also run across at least one Sith on Voss who gets fatally wounded by the wildlife.

 

It is one of the flaws with how the game was written and designed. Jedi and Sith enemies should have only been used sparingly as enemies, and only as boss encounters. Dark Council or Jedi Council members should only have died during the Jedi or Sith class missions or in Flashpoints where it canonically took a team of people to take them down. Non-force users should have had force using opponents in their class stories limited to an end boss, either for a chapter, or the entire class story, and for cutscene magic to imply they used their wits to take them down rather than in a straight up fight.

 

Force users also shouldn't have been killed by weak NPCs, like that Sith who gets mauled to death by an animal.

Ahhh but you forget...having the Force doesn't make you a god. Plenty of Force users, inside and outside of SWTOR have been defeated or humbled by non-force users. In fact BW's approach to the power levels is entirely sound. The Force is just a tool. A powerful and versatile one yes. But it is still just a tool. And someone with greater mastery of a different tool and trade can just as easily take down a skilled/experienced force user. It just requires some unconventional thinking, again, due to the Force's versatility.

If you still question my logic, then answer this question for yourself:

If the Death Star fired on Korriban from orbit, could all the sith present on the planet save it?

Yeah only the knight? That being said its not that big of a deal considering that besides the Consular and of course Revan the previous jedi we know of where not very impressive not that there weak but you know not compared with these 3 of course Exar Kun and Ulic may be but probably it was refered to only the time they where jedi so their power is compared with them as jedi.

Still is it only the knight?

If the knight is "The most powerful Jedi to ever exist", then that automatically makes the Con, Inq, and Warrior well within his/her power range due to the "class balance" being actual canon for the game. (At least as far as I understand it. If I'm wrong please correct me AND provide evidence directly from BW)

I always wondered how TF Kaeden could've defeated all 6 Dread Masters when we the PC's needed an ops group to do so, and yet little old keaden, who is supposed to be a sort of TOR Windu, is a measly little elite that the very same PC's (who needed an ops group to beat the Dread Masters) can easily solo on Ilum. That has never made any sense to me at all...is there anyone who can explain it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the knight is "The most powerful Jedi to ever exist", then that automatically makes the Con, Inq, and Warrior well within his/her power range due to the "class balance" being actual canon for the game. (At least as far as I understand it. If I'm wrong please correct me AND provide evidence directly from BW)

So lets answer what I can Kaedan did not defeated the dread masters alone he led a strike team to defeat them like we do also. So the same thing as us.

Now for the knight well lets put it this way he might be the strongest jedi to ever exist until that point but it does not make him better then the consular lets say he outclasses the consular in force power, lightsaber combat, by a small margin but he does what if the Consular surpasses him in how he uses his force powers and lightsaber. You may be more powerful but not smarter. Get my point?