Before you all lambast me for even thinking of this, LOOK AT THE RANKED LEADERBOARDS.

In Yolos, we are now the second worst class, below even the much maligned Sentinel! And in Group, we are third worst. 2 or more of our specializations are at a significant disadvantage when it comes to competitive PVP, and the upcoming resolve changes will be even worse. Coupled with the current bugs already in our favor that keep our viability slightly, such as the Ravage root pulling people who are running away even if they have immunity, etc.

With this in mind, here are my proposed ideas for changing Guardians and Juggernauts:

Baseline Unremitting/Unstoppable, remove the utility. For all 3 specs. Unremitting protects against knockbacks, roots, and slows, Robust remains a Vigilance exclusive. Replace the utility slot filled by Unremitting with, "Jedi Pursuer / Inescapable Wrath," which allows Ravage and Master Strike to be used on the move. Change the animation however necessary, but keep the old one if you don't have the utility.

THIS IS NOT ENOUGH. Both Guardians and Sentinels are still HILARIOUSLY behind Sorcs and Shadows in PVP, especially in DPS output. It is a known fact that no decent hatred sin will ever be exceeded the damage of a Vigilance Guardian. Simply put, in PVP, getting upwards of 2.5k DPS in a warzone is rare, let alone 3k+, whereas on a Sage or Shadow, it's not uncommon. To compensate, Vigilance needs a buff to it's DoTs. Personally, I feel that there should be a sub 30% DoT damage increase, as this is a change PVE has needed for a while, but for PVP, I feel the effect would be limited.

Vig itself needs a general higher ability to DoTspread, so I feel that the cooldown for Vigilant Thrust should be decreased to 6 seconds. This would allow for more chances to DoTspread, and more AOE damage, to compensate for the general lack of burst. Vig also needs the rootbreak from guardian leap, and same with Defense as a baseline.

As for Focus, it's passive survivability needs a significant boost. the Defense Boost from Concentrated Slice that Concentration gets should be increased, and because the general single target DPS level of focus needs an increase, I feel that Force Exhaustion's damage effect should become more of a longer DoT with more damage per activation. In addition, Focus needs a bit more control in order to maintain it's damage, and considering that roots will be a lot less useful in the next patch, I think having Focused Burst root a target would be a good idea, and also increasing it's range to 15 meters, along with Blade Storm. Focus right now is the "burst" spec, but in both PVP and PVE, it has a lot less advantages otherwise. Giving it the power of mobility and range compared to Vigilance would be a good step in giving it some viability.

Zealous Leap animation should be changed for PVE reasons if at a melee range, so that it does not move you, making the ability more useful in fights with movement.

I welcome any suggestions by anyone other than Adproduction.

From my PvP point of view.

I have mixed feelings on this one. To make it clear I think PvP should be balanced around ranked, which is partly to say Juggs are perfectly great in regs.

I ranked, the biggest issue imo is not our damage, it's our ability to stick to targets. I can be kited for days and not be able to do anything at all about it. Gaining an extra utility point with unremitting being a base Jugg ability would be nice, but I don't see that making a huge difference.

I can't really think of a fix right now that would be "balanced", I just know that I would love to be able to stay on top of my targets more.

From my PvP point of view.

 

I have mixed feelings on this one. To make it clear I think PvP should be balanced around ranked, which is partly to say Juggs are perfectly great in regs.

 

I ranked, the biggest issue imo is not our damage, it's our ability to stick to targets. I can be kited for days and not be able to do anything at all about it. Gaining an extra utility point with unremitting being a base Jugg ability would be nice, but I don't see that making a huge difference.

 

I can't really think of a fix right now that would be "balanced", I just know that I would love to be able to stay on top of my targets more.

Mobile Ravage. I agree though. The worst is in the opening of a ranked match where you are CCed and can't really do anything other than twiddle your thumbs. Granted, this is a problem with many classes, including maras, but Vengeance just feels a lot more range constricted than a lot of our melee bretheren, we have no escapes.

From my PvP point of view.

 

I have mixed feelings on this one. To make it clear I think PvP should be balanced around ranked, which is partly to say Juggs are perfectly great in regs.

 

I ranked, the biggest issue imo is not our damage, it's our ability to stick to targets. I can be kited for days and not be able to do anything at all about it. Gaining an extra utility point with unremitting being a base Jugg ability would be nice, but I don't see that making a huge difference.

 

I can't really think of a fix right now that would be "balanced", I just know that I would love to be able to stay on top of my targets more.

One thing to keep in mind, the resolve root changes will help us here. In fact they will aid classes with a charge much more than those without, as while those without will still have to deal with a snare, we will finally get to use our leap(s).

That said, the changes you're suggesting (this is to OP) don't seem too bad, but keep in mind the devs have not so subtly suggested they're more interested in nerfing the specs that are overperforming rather than overbuffing others to get to that level, they want to avoid the DPS arms race that took place in late 2.X.

I don't think that Master Strike/Ravage will ever be usable on the move, nor should it, its part of the defining features of the class and knowing when to fire it off is part skill based on the player's part, not to mention its important to allow counterplay from your opponents. At most, normalize the damage a bit so instead of 25%/25%/50% for the 3 hits, make it more like 30%/30%/40%, to reduce the penalty for having to clip the last hit while still rewarding players who stop you from getting the last hit off.

Focus Spec doesn't really need a ton of roots and ranged help, what it needs is passive DR similar to what Vigilance gets in order to survive the scrums these two get into. Not as much as Vig obviously since its burstier, but something. Focused Defense is a second life, and that's cool and all (and amazing in solo ranked matches without heals), but when both teams have a healer, it doesn't make a tremendous difference because once its gone its gone, and you're stuck with just your base DR other than a 3 minute cd Saber Ward. I'd suggest tying an ability that Vigilance used to have, into Focus, that being that the DR from Intercede is also transferred to the player and not just the target. In fact, make it just like that talent used to be, with a small Endurance boost as well (3% or so) and they'd be fine in terms of survivability.

I agree with Intercede root break being baseline. Actually, what I'd like to see is the heroic talent that buffs intercede also give it a root break property that includes root/snare immunity for the duration of the DR buff (6 seconds), this would do wonders for our mobility, and would finally give us a good reason to take that talent beyond Huttball.

One thing to keep in mind, the resolve root changes will help us here. In fact they will aid classes with a charge much more than those without, as while those without will still have to deal with a snare, we will finally get to use our leap(s).

 

That said, the changes you're suggesting (this is to OP) don't seem too bad, but keep in mind the devs have not so subtly suggested they're more interested in nerfing the specs that are overperforming rather than overbuffing others to get to that level, they want to avoid the DPS arms race that took place in late 2.X.

 

I don't think that Master Strike/Ravage will ever be usable on the move, nor should it, its part of the defining features of the class and knowing when to fire it off is part skill based on the player's part, not to mention its important to allow counterplay from your opponents. At most, normalize the damage a bit so instead of 25%/25%/50% for the 3 hits, make it more like 30%/30%/40%, to reduce the penalty for having to clip the last hit while still rewarding players who stop you from getting the last hit off.

 

Focus Spec doesn't really need a ton of roots and ranged help, what it needs is passive DR similar to what Vigilance gets in order to survive the scrums these two get into. Not as much as Vig obviously since its burstier, but something. Focused Defense is a second life, and that's cool and all (and amazing in solo ranked matches without heals), but when both teams have a healer, it doesn't make a tremendous difference because once its gone its gone, and you're stuck with just your base DR other than a 3 minute cd Saber Ward. I'd suggest tying an ability that Vigilance used to have, into Focus, that being that the DR from Intercede is also transferred to the player and not just the target. In fact, make it just like that talent used to be, with a small Endurance boost as well (3% or so) and they'd be fine in terms of survivability.

 

I agree with Intercede root break being baseline. Actually, what I'd like to see is the heroic talent that buffs intercede also give it a root break property that includes root/snare immunity for the duration of the DR buff (6 seconds), this would do wonders for our mobility, and would finally give us a good reason to take that talent beyond Huttball.

I don't necessarily think that the changes I listed are even possible, but I think that as far as our community goes, we need to have this discussion. When 3.3 PTS comes up, Lucky's going to post a Andrew style state of the guardian post, and I do think that every player that knows what they are doing should weigh in.

One thing to keep in mind, the resolve root changes will help us here. In fact they will aid classes with a charge much more than those without, as while those without will still have to deal with a snare, we will finally get to use our leap(s).

You know, I feel like an idiot for not even realizing that. That's a good point. I just hope they fix the half leap bug or it will be for naught.

I don't think that Master Strike/Ravage will ever be usable on the move, nor should it, its part of the defining features of the class and knowing when to fire it off is part skill based on the player's part, not to mention its important to allow counterplay from your opponents.

Yet that thinking is just as applicable to nearly every other class that received a channel while moving ability as well. Granted though that counterplay is more emphasized with MS because of its backloaded nature.

At most, normalize the damage a bit so instead of 25%/25%/50% for the 3 hits, make it more like 30%/30%/40%, to reduce the penalty for having to clip the last hit while still rewarding players who stop you from getting the last hit off.

Short of a moveable MS/Rav I agree this would be the preferable alternative.

Just a thought, but maybe it would be enough to extent out dots from OS and BS from 6 to 9 seconds, so they have a 100% uptime?

I could imagine it wouldn't be too much of a buff in PvP, regarding burst, but could be enough to up our sustained and aoe damage to where it should be?(I'm not really a number cruncher, so I don't know how much of a buff this would actually be.)

And yes, Master Strike on the move and AoE Guardian Slash without Warding Strike buff would be welcomed.

To be completely honest, one thing I'd really like to see is Master Strike/Ravage being reverted to pre-3.0 status (30 second cooldown, ~25% more damage), and just give a talent to Concentration/Fury and Focus/Rage to reduce the cooldown on it.

Admittedly, this is cause Watchman can only fit it in every 30 seconds...But think of what it could do for guardians!

I'm currently writing a giant "State of Jugg" post for 3.3 depending on what we get. Right now we have issues, especially in Rage. I'm not a PVP'er, Rydarus can tell you that much, I have a full exhumed set and we do lolregs once a week just to kill time before raids.

One thing I will say, Rage is currently not performing correctly. The damage in PVE between a Shockwave buffed Smash and a non buffed Smash is 5%, not 15%. It's about 400 damage difference. So the AOE is lacking even more than it should be.

I'm saving the bulk of my post for the PTS but I have a lot of critique for the class. Vengeance's DPS is in a fine place, Rage sucks in every regard and Tank has some flaws. My honest idea for Rage is an AOE DR of 30%. I mean, the classes survival is so non-existent anyways, you might as well give it one of the best DR's in game if it's only going to be running 3% DR. Every Sentinel spec in game, regardless of utilities, has more survival than Rage does.

To be completely honest, one thing I'd really like to see is Master Strike/Ravage being reverted to pre-3.0 status (30 second cooldown, ~25% more damage), and just give a talent to Concentration/Fury and Focus/Rage to reduce the cooldown on it.

 

Admittedly, this is cause Watchman can only fit it in every 30 seconds...But think of what it could do for guardians!

Fairly good idea. Hell even in Immortal, Ravage comes last on priority because the channel may end up delaying something. I think I use it on a 25 sec average. Honestly I think they need to go down the route we always wanted, stop making the saber throw set bonus a set bonus when it's so instrumental to the specs. If you do not have Saber throw sub 10m, your DPS Rotation can fall apart. Jugg DPS in PVE as far as I'm concerned is the only class in game that relies on a set bonus to make the rotation actually work. Anyways, end of PVE talk.

I'm currently writing a giant "State of Jugg" post for 3.3 depending on what we get. Right now we have issues, especially in Rage. I'm not a PVP'er, Rydarus can tell you that much, I have a full exhumed set and we do lolregs once a week just to kill time before raids.

 

One thing I will say, Rage is currently not performing correctly. The damage in PVE between a Shockwave buffed Smash and a non buffed Smash is 5%, not 15%. It's about 400 damage difference. So the AOE is lacking even more than it should be.

 

I'm saving the bulk of my post for the PTS but I have a lot of critique for the class. Vengeance's DPS is in a fine place, Rage sucks in every regard and Tank has some flaws. My honest idea for Rage is an AOE DR of 30%. I mean, the classes survival is so non-existent anyways, you might as well give it one of the best DR's in game if it's only going to be running 3% DR. Every Sentinel spec in game, regardless of utilities, has more survival than Rage does.

 

 

 

Fairly good idea. Hell even in Immortal, Ravage comes last on priority because the channel may end up delaying something. I think I use it on a 25 sec average. Honestly I think they need to go down the route we always wanted, stop making the saber throw set bonus a set bonus when it's so instrumental to the specs. If you do not have Saber throw sub 10m, your DPS Rotation can fall apart. Jugg DPS in PVE as far as I'm concerned is the only class in game that relies on a set bonus to make the rotation actually work. Anyways, end of PVE talk.

Couple things:

Set bonus should proc off of multiple things, not just saber throw. Adding the bonus to say Blade Storm, or DoTs and Force Exhaustion would be a good idea.

Dump some of that crazy survivability, and maybe then you can get some more DPS.

Maras are now definitively better than juggs in yolos. GG

Maras are now definitively better than juggs in yolos. GG

Please don't start that, there is so many factors going into the yolo ranked leaderboards and most of em aren't related to class balance.

In a vacuum, regardless of PVE, PVP, Tacticals what ever. Marauders have a lot more to work with than Juggernaut. You can throw arenas, ranked into my face it doesn't change the fact if we compare.

Please don't start that, there *are so many factors going into the yolo ranked leaderboards and most of em aren't related to class balance.

fixed.

Anyway, while I agree yolos aren't an exact representation by any means, the fact of the matter is that it's one of the few statistics we have, literally, anything else is PURELY anecdotal. You could tell me that Maras do X and I can tell you I can do X and my Mara can do Y, and we'd be both able to keep this up until we fall over and die.

So, instead, I'm just going to state this: Maras have been buffed EXTREMELY significantly. To put it frankly, in PVP, I don't think they are the apathetic useless pieces of **** they were in early 3.0, and Watchman has a place in the meta, at least for now, or at least more than it used to.