I was having a discussion about this earlier with a friend of mine, and he brought up 2 major plot holes in the Prequels (please don't waste this thread on prequel slamming):

We know that Jango Fett was a template for the clone army. But if Jango Fett was allied with the Confederacy of Independent Systems, wouldn't that automatically raise some red flags with the Jedi Council? Also, if the Clone Wars lasted 3 years, why didn't Amidala, who was completely opposed to the Military Creation Act, do some investigation into the origins of the Clone Army?

Isn't Anakin's affection for Padme a little too obvious for them not to know they were in a relationship? At the beginning of Episode II, Obi-Wan chastises Anakin for telling Padme they'll do everything in their power to find the person behind the attacks on her, so he can tell he has some affection for her. Yet the Council still sends them on a trip to Naboo, just the 2 of them? And wouldn't the Council wonder where Anakin spends most of his nights (we know he's always sleeping in Padme's Couruscant apartment)?

Well, Jango Fett is a bounty hunter, so he's not exactly affiliated with the Separatists. At the time, they most likely assumed he was just a hired gun.

Wouldn't they be thinking something along the lines of "Hmmm, let's see here. Jango Fett was the Clone template for our army. He was recruited by some mysterious figure called Tyrannus, and right now he's working for the CIS." Wouldn't that raise ANY red flags?

Wouldn't they be thinking something along the lines of "Hmmm, let's see here. Jango Fett was the Clone template for our army. He was recruited by some mysterious figure called Tyrannus, and right now he's working for the CIS." Wouldn't that raise ANY red flags?

Most likely, but what are they going to do? Turn the army away?

You've highlighted a key part of the Grand Plan. The Jedi Order was trapped. The Sith had basically forced them into an unwinnable position. No matter what they did, they were going to go against their ideals in some way.

Most likely, but what are they going to do? Turn the army away?

 

You've highlighted a key part of the Grand Plan. The Jedi Order was trapped. The Sith had basically forced them into an unwinnable position. No matter what they did, they were going to go against their ideals in some way.

So what about the relationship between Anakin and Padme? Anakin always disappears at night to sleep with her, he shows obvious affection towards her in the presence of other Jedi (I go back to him telling Padme they'd do everything in their power to find the person behing her assassination attempts)- how did the others not notice? Or did they?

So what about the relationship between Anakin and Padme? Anakin always disappears at night to sleep with her, he shows obvious affection towards her in the presence of other Jedi (I go back to him telling Padme they'd do everything in their power to find the person behing her assassination attempts)- how did the others not notice? Or did they?

I explained to you already. The Jedi knew their relationship but chose to turn on a blind eye on it because the Jedi needs allies in the Senate very much since they were not in a good political situation.

I explained to you already. The Jedi knew their relationship but chose to turn on a blind eye on it because the Jedi needs allies in the Senate very much since they were not in a good political situation.

consider in episode 3 when Obi-wan needed to find Anakin he knew EXACTLY where to go.

the Jedi aren't idiots. they knew. and turned a blind eye.

So what about the relationship between Anakin and Padme? Anakin always disappears at night to sleep with her, he shows obvious affection towards her in the presence of other Jedi (I go back to him telling Padme they'd do everything in their power to find the person behing her assassination attempts)- how did the others not notice? Or did they?

Note also the Jedi usually don't just expel someone for having a relationship. It's against their tenets but it's not condemned. It's more frowned upon.

I explained to you already. The Jedi knew their relationship but chose to turn on a blind eye on it because the Jedi needs allies in the Senate very much since they were not in a good political situation.

Sadly that wouldn't help much. The Trade Federation controlled much of the Senate, and there were something like 200 senators who opposed the Military Creation Act- basically the only ones not controlled by the Trade Federation. 200 people doesn't make much of a difference in terms of influence in the Senate when we're talking about thousands of other systems.

Sadly that wouldn't help much. The Trade Federation controlled much of the Senate, and there were something like 200 senators who opposed the Military Creation Act- basically the only ones not controlled by the Trade Federation. 200 people doesn't make much of a difference in terms of influence in the Senate when we're talking about thousands of other systems.

It's still better to have an ally.

Padme is not some random senator. She was the former queen, who could vote off the chancellor. Even after that, Naboo is still a very important planet. Her ally Bail was also another core planet's leader.

The idea of relationships among the Jedi has always been inconsistent. It really seems to be "more of a guideline" than a rule tbh. The original Jedi Mantra was even different. It was far more "eastern". It was " there is no" al la the 10 commandments. So instead of "there is no passion, there is serenity" it was rather "passion, yet serenity" (as an example.) It was changed after one of the great Sith wars.

During the consular storyline you see this. You end up saving the Jedi daughter of another Jedi. Additionally at the end when it is offered for Jedi to go to Voss and learn "balance" from the Mystics...it isn't "no" that is said, rather "we will have to be careful who we select." Its also not a huge secret that Satele Shan has a son...yet she becomes Grand Master of the order. It seems to be more about "if you demonstrate that you can handle attachments, you can have attachments" but to avoid people saying 'oh I think I can handle it' they say "no attachments."

I explained to you already. The Jedi knew their relationship but chose to turn on a blind eye on it because the Jedi needs allies in the Senate very much since they were not in a good political situation.

No they didn't. Clone Wars makes it clear that the Jedi Order doesn't know. Only a few suspect at best.

Most likely, but what are they going to do? Turn the army away?

 

You've highlighted a key part of the Grand Plan. The Jedi Order was trapped. The Sith had basically forced them into an unwinnable position. No matter what they did, they were going to go against their ideals in some way.

Actually, they explain this even in the movies, the clones are programmed to be loyal soldiers of the Republic and undoubtedly were showed their programming before they were engaged and utilized for combat. Something that is again expanded upon several times in the Clone Wars.

The idea of relationships among the Jedi has always been inconsistent. It really seems to be "more of a guideline" than a rule tbh. The original Jedi Mantra was even different. It was far more "eastern". It was " there is no" al la the 10 commandments. So instead of "there is no passion, there is serenity" it was rather "passion, yet serenity" (as an example.) It was changed after one of the great Sith wars.

 

During the consular storyline you see this. You end up saving the Jedi daughter of another Jedi. Additionally at the end when it is offered for Jedi to go to Voss and learn "balance" from the Mystics...it isn't "no" that is said, rather "we will have to be careful who we select." Its also not a huge secret that Satele Shan has a son...yet she becomes Grand Master of the order. It seems to be more about "if you demonstrate that you can handle attachments, you can have attachments" but to avoid people saying 'oh I think I can handle it' they say "no attachments."

This is what I tell people constantly and everyone has a difficult time grasping. The Jedi Code is a guideline. The Sith Code isn't. The Sith Code is a way of life.

This is what I tell people constantly and everyone has a difficult time grasping. The Jedi Code is a guideline. The Sith Code isn't. The Sith Code is a way of life.

And I frankly disagree with that since even the Sith don't even live by their own code, and the Jedi are more strict about it. Again, the Jedi don't know about Anakin's child, hence why even Obi-Wan asks point blankly in Episode 3 about it, after they find Anakin has fallen. At best they suspect, but have no proof.

In fact they make it a hard point on Tython that the code is not just a set of guidelines but they do enforce it. Hence the two lovers, if you oust them, are expelled from the Jedi Order. Also, remember Obi-Wan in Episode 2, letting his emotions for Padme get the better of him, told Anakin flat out that he would be expelled from the Jedi Order. And in fact it's a constant drumbeat that not only would Anakin be expelled if their love and marriage was discovered, but Padme would also be removed from the Senate.

So in short your belief is misinterpreting what you've said because in no sense of the fashion does anyone in the Jedi Order even hint at acknowledging that Padme and Anakin are together, let alone do they infer that their code is just guidelines.

And I frankly disagree with that since even the Sith don't even live by their own code, and the Jedi are more strict about it. Again, the Jedi don't know about Anakin's child, hence why even Obi-Wan asks point blankly in Episode 3 about it, after they find Anakin has fallen. At best they suspect, but have no proof.

 

In fact they make it a hard point on Tython that the code is not just a set of guidelines but they do enforce it. Hence the two lovers, if you oust them, are expelled from the Jedi Order. Also, remember Obi-Wan in Episode 2, letting his emotions for Padme get the better of him, told Anakin flat out that he would be expelled from the Jedi Order. And in fact it's a constant drumbeat that not only would Anakin be expelled if their love and marriage was discovered, but Padme would also be removed from the Senate.

 

So in short your belief is misinterpreting what you've said because in no sense of the fashion does anyone in the Jedi Order even hint at acknowledging that Padme and Anakin are together, let alone do they infer that their code is just guidelines.

I think the difference is that where Jedi are given slack rather consistently the Sith Code can be used as a club in their internal back stabbing. Example...if you have an unauthorized attachment as a Jedi and it goes south...you get an equivalent of counseling and likely placed under greater scrutiny. Make the wrong enemy among the Sith though you can find that enemy using your violation of the code as the reason he or she smokes you. The Sith are, imo, similar to the Mafia. Just like "this thing of ours" if you make the right friends you can break all the rules you want, make the wrong enemies though and you can find yourself buried under home plate @ Meadow Lands Standium.

I think the difference is that where Jedi are given slack rather consistently the Sith Code can be used as a club in their internal back stabbing. Example...if you have an unauthorized attachment as a Jedi and it goes south...you get an equivalent of counseling and likely placed under greater scrutiny. Make the wrong enemy among the Sith though you can find that enemy using your violation of the code as the reason he or she smokes you. The Sith are, imo, similar to the Mafia. Just like "this thing of ours" if you make the right friends you can break all the rules you want, make the wrong enemies though and you can find yourself buried under home plate @ Meadow Lands Standium.

It's how it's handled in the end, both organizations use their codes as chains when they see the need to abuse those chains, but otherwise, it's a method of if you don't get caught go to town. Honestly, it's very hard to show you aren't following the sith code, considering as long as you are pursuing your right to power you are pretty much sticking to said code. Hell, even Sidious shows he is ignoring the Rule of Two, something the Jedi firmly believe in still (as Sidious has had multiple apprentices at the same time) and as Rebels is showing, has been teaching more Sith teachings to people (hence the Inquisitor).

Makes that whole line of only Sith believe in absolutes seem rather silly when the Jedi are fairly absolute about everything while the Sith seem to leave things open for interpretation or throw out rules completely because they are stupid (aka the Rule of Two).

It's still better to have an ally.

 

Padme is not some random senator. She was the former queen, who could vote off the chancellor. Even after that, Naboo is still a very important planet. Her ally Bail was also another core planet's leader.

Ok, I'm sorry, but that former queen stuff in the prequels annoys me to no end. I know the OP didn't want prequel bashing, but daggonit, I have to say it.

Lucas wrote a messy, stupid horrible script....without any thinking or apparently oversight. Queens aren't elected. If he actually gave a crap about it he would have just called her Prime Minister/ President/ Big Head Honcho in the first movie...than her being a senator later would make sense. (and no, I don't give a hoot what any novelization or book may have said to make it look less stupid)

And I frankly disagree with that since even the Sith don't even live by their own code, and the Jedi are more strict about it. Again, the Jedi don't know about Anakin's child, hence why even Obi-Wan asks point blankly in Episode 3 about it, after they find Anakin has fallen. At best they suspect, but have no proof.

 

In fact they make it a hard point on Tython that the code is not just a set of guidelines but they do enforce it. Hence the two lovers, if you oust them, are expelled from the Jedi Order. Also, remember Obi-Wan in Episode 2, letting his emotions for Padme get the better of him, told Anakin flat out that he would be expelled from the Jedi Order. And in fact it's a constant drumbeat that not only would Anakin be expelled if their love and marriage was discovered, but Padme would also be removed from the Senate.

 

So in short your belief is misinterpreting what you've said because in no sense of the fashion does anyone in the Jedi Order even hint at acknowledging that Padme and Anakin are together, let alone do they infer that their code is just guidelines.

Maybe that's why so many people like playing Sith in game. Jedi ain't allowed to get jiggy jiggy wit it.

Maybe that's why so many people like playing Sith in game. Jedi ain't allowed to get jiggy jiggy wit it.

Unfortunately, more people have made Jedi's in the game. Needless to say, it's ironic the "absolutist" as Obi-Wan had the audacity to say, tend to have more freedoms and less strict rules and regulations than the so called champions of freedom.

Sadly that wouldn't help much. The Trade Federation controlled much of the Senate, and there were something like 200 senators who opposed the Military Creation Act- basically the only ones not controlled by the Trade Federation. 200 people doesn't make much of a difference in terms of influence in the Senate when we're talking about thousands of other systems.

Not trying to be funny, but where did you get this information? I could have missed it but I don't recall any of it being said (at least in any detail) in the movie. You're right of course, about the numbers....200 doesn't mean a lot if there are thousands of senators.

Not trying to be funny, but where did you get this information? I could have missed it but I don't recall any of it being said (at least in any detail) in the movie. You're right of course, about the numbers....200 doesn't mean a lot if there are thousands of senators.

It wasn't said anywhere. The Trade Federation didn't have any control of the senate. At most, the only people that might have had influence, was the Banking Clan, and Clone Wars pretty much ousted them. The only thing ever said about the Trade Federation was that Nut Gunray was still in charge, after something like four attempts to press charges in the courts.

Needless to say, there are a lot of plot holes in Episode 1 and 2, but the trade Federation controlling most of the senate wasn't one of them.

It wasn't said anywhere. The Trade Federation didn't have any control of the senate. At most, the only people that might have had influence, was the Banking Clan, and Clone Wars pretty much ousted them. The only thing ever said about the Trade Federation was that Nut Gunray was still in charge, after something like four attempts to press charges in the courts.

Oh. Thanks. I was just making sure I didn't miss something that may have added a smidgen of sense to the juvenile script of that movie.

I asked because one thing that drives me nuts is when anyone has to make up stuff to explain something that should have been fixed or rewritten completely in a movie.

Needless to say, there are a lot of plot holes in Episode 1 and 2, but the trade Federation controlling most of the senate wasn't one of them.

The entire prequel trilogy is full of plot holes. It is impossible to discuss anything that happened in them without 'bashing' them since Lucas pretty much took a dump on a legal pad and called it a script.

Let us also remember that the minds of the entire Jedi council, even Yoda, were being clouded by Darth Sidious, to the point where he got himself installed as the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic, with their BLESSING! Sidious was also training at least two apprentices in the ways of the Sith.....and not a single Jedi even had an inkling it was happening. Okay maybe Yoda had an inkling, but only barely and he never acted on it. This could be a reason why the Jedi were "unaware" of Ani and Padme hooking up.

Also, I think the Jedi council was afraid of Anakin. They knew of the prophecy and also of Anakin's extraordinary medichlorian count and of his formidable raw power. Perhaps even if they knew about Ani and Padme, they would not have dared to try to "forbid" him.

I'm not saying......Im just saying.