its quite idiotic to make random ques for operations only 16 person. many guilds like to run random story ops as guild runs and not every guild is full of 450 over populated bad members. some guilds like to remain small and work with people on a more individual level.

you have basically forced random ops to either take a bunch of people they really don't want to take or inflate their guild with bads so they have the option to do full guild runs.

you already made it so that the servers are over populated with people that power leveled to 55 with 12x XP that don't know a thing about their class. now we are going to have to wipe in ops 1000 times.

there is no voice server associated with starwars so now we have to invite hundreds of people to our personal voice coms because its nearly impossible to work with 16 people in an op and have everyone know what mechanics are going to happen when.

this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to how much is wrong with this idea. I would like to petition for the person that came up with this idea be fired on the spot and someone that actually plays the game and works with the community that has knowledge of how the game is actually played be put in their position immediately before it gets broken any more then it has been.

if the idea here to make the game totally unenjoyable for everyone that likes operations, goal achieved.

/sign

PLEASE explain the logic of this decision. So are we only catering to the mega guilds? IS that what BW is saying? You only want larger guils to be able to enjoy the content? How does leaving 8 man ops hurt the game? I truly hope this is an error and not an intended game feature.

yes i dont understand why we cant just choose between 8m or 16m

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yes i dont understand why we cant just choose between 8m or 16m

Agreed

I have to agree, it took over an hour to gather a 13 man group and due to the time it took we lost 2 people, still no full group. Small guilds can no longer partake in group finder ops, so unfair

Smaller guilds cannot get the reward for an operations because they don't have the people to earn the reward. That is unfair how exactly? You still can run the 8-man option, but you want the better reward of comms? Or you have 5 people and need to que for 3 more?

Why don't you partner with another guild for raids? I don't exactly understand the issue.

Smaller guilds cannot get the reward for an operations because they don't have the people to earn the reward. That is unfair how exactly? You still can run the 8-man option, but you want the better reward of comms? Or you have 5 people and need to que for 3 more?

 

Why don't you partner with another guild for raids? I don't exactly understand the issue.

Did you actually READ the quote that you quoted? Smaller guilds try to group with other guilds or use GF but it takes so painfully long that people get fed up and leave. Play times can also be a factor. Not everyone plays at peak hours so is their sub worth less than yours? I cant believe someone is actually defending removal of game content.

I have to agree Wrath. I was, wrongly, under the impression that we would have the option as to whether we would like to run 8 or 16 man.

My guild consists of international players (in a number of timezones) and I can now safely say that we will NEVER be able to run 16 man ops at the times that we are all online. I can understand why BW would bow to the pressure put on by large guilds (hell, wouldn't we all like an easy life) to go back to 16 man, but at the expense of the smaller guys?.... this just gives me the impression that things haven't been thought through at all - to the point where I am starting to regret having parted with £11.99 to pre-order an expansion that, based on these current "idiotic" decisions, will probably prove to be the largest waste of money since the War on Terror.

Let's be honest, it's not like the servers are stuffed with players, 12x XP or not - I'm not even sure whether we are going to be able to get a full 16 man ops on PotF. I had such high hopes and belief in this game after the Strongholds expansion... I'm losing faith pretty quickly, and at the moment of writing this post, the will to live. I mean, imagine trying to PUG a Dread Council with 16 12x XP pugs?... That'll be lot's of fun (if I can find a group)!

Well done, BioWare. Very well done.

As a member of what can be safely called a very large guild,

WHY WOULD YOU KEEP ONLY 16MAN IN GROUP FINDER?!

It's very, very, VERY dumb.

16man by design is "easier" than 8man in that its easier to deal with derps, BUT the big problems emerge quite quickly: 16man is prohibitive in that many computer rigs cannot handle it 100% effectively (Before you say it's necessarily a computer's fault, refer to 16man corruptor zero when he does his red circle lots of missles wannabe. No matter your rig, it will cough and splutter at the load.)

16man does not need the rewards that 8man does. It already has piles of commendations from the bosses themselves.

I vote that they equalize commendations from both 8man and 16man, and put BOTH in group finder.

The decision was made so that DPS have a better chance of making it into a queue at all, because in 16 man a higher proportion of the group consists of DPS. If your guild is 8 man, go run the instance the normal way (meaning zone into it with your feet) if you're married to the idea of a 'guild run' of story mode.

Splitting the queue would just ensure it pops less, so they're not going to do that.

The decision was made so that DPS have a better chance of making it into a queue at all, because in 16 man a higher proportion of the group consists of DPS. If your guild is 8 man, go run the instance the normal way (meaning zone into it with your feet) if you're married to the idea of a 'guild run' of story mode.

 

Splitting the queue would just ensure it pops less, so they're not going to do that.

Oh, I'd forgotten that healers are in abundance...

Seriously, why not have both 8 and 16 man options?

The decision was made so that DPS have a better chance of making it into a queue at all, because in 16 man a higher proportion of the group consists of DPS. If your guild is 8 man, go run the instance the normal way (meaning zone into it with your feet) if you're married to the idea of a 'guild run' of story mode.

 

Splitting the queue would just ensure it pops less, so they're not going to do that.

I would love to take GF ques out of the equation here.... Oh wait you dont get those 30 ult comms if you just walk in!!! No i think the system worked just fine so either make a seperate 8/16 m queing system or do away with RGF OPS ques and grant the same rewards for walk-ins.

Oh, I'd forgotten that healers are in abundance...

 

Seriously, why not have both 8 and 16 man options?

Tanks are rare.

I answered your question in my first post.

I was asking my guild about this last night. Shouldn't there be an option to choose between 8man and 16man ques.

A lot of que's will have incompetent pugs with 16man, and that is what happened last time that 16man que was around.

Way to suck it up with office talk, SWTOR.

The threshold for error is LOWER with a 16 man over an 8 man. In 16m you can have weak dps and still get through, in an 8 man if you have someone with no voice & who never did it, good luck trying to finish Council...

Furthermore in 16 man you get ULTIMATE coms for each boss you down vrs worthless elite coms. This is the best change made yet. I am glad they did it. No more splits at the end with people wondering if they are going to get the good tank or the good healers. Now you go all the way through.

I agree that having the 8 man is helpful, my guild only has 10 active members that always show up, and the comms are helpful... we have just lost out because we choose to be small.

Everything lately seems to be favoring the Mega guilds... this and conquests... very sad.

I'm also surprised there's no toggle for 8 vs 16. Additionally surprised that the reward is the exact same. Small guilds can run the 8 man for a pittance of comms now, almost not worth it since the daily gives 10 ultimate and takes considerably less time. 16 is cool for not having to split at the end for GF, but now I've got to deal with the chaotic pugs of 16 man hoping they get carried when they focus on the boss the entire fight. Now if the rewards were double (60 Ultimate comms) since x2 the amount of people are playing then I could see a real advantage to doing 16 man.

DPS is a dime a dozen in any game. If they want to join ops or not have to wait a long time they have to accept that everyone and their mother rolls a DPS and choose to play another role. If they like DPS then they need to accept that there are more DPS than there are tanks/healers and their queue times will reflect that. The answer isn't to entirely take away an option for GF.

There are clear reasons people like 16 man and vice versa for 8 man. I don't see why they didn't just keep both instead of in all practicality forcing people who do ops for comms to do 16 man.

Comrades,

I do not post often but this is a must. I am in agreement with the tide of sentiment here. Small guilds definitely loose out here. From my perspective the two biggest issues are:

1.) Time - trying to get 16 people together for an Ops run is an arduous task and takes close to an hour if not longer. The frustration of waiting compounds as people leave and yet another spot needs to be filled.

2.) Quality - There has been a general decline in the skill of players over the past year or so. I think this is why most people running Ops try and do it as a guild. The x12 XP has been little more than a race to the bottom as far as competency. Look at the gear now when people show up for ops. The other night a guy came in with Cartel Armor and NO MODS in it...NO MODS. His AC level was 8 and yet he was a level 55?! On another recent OPs run I asked a Sorc to CC. He said "OK" and then asked "What is CC?" This is why experienced players want 8-man.

I am not anti-16 man but I agree there should be a toggle for 8 man. The 30 comms reward is a tremendous idea as it allows our lower level guildies to armor up and gain experience at the same time. Without 8-man this is just a memory now. Whoever thought this up doesn't play SWTOR.

Sincerely,

Suisiderf

The decision was made so that DPS have a better chance of making it into a queue at all, because in 16 man a higher proportion of the group consists of DPS. If your guild is 8 man, go run the instance the normal way (meaning zone into it with your feet) if you're married to the idea of a 'guild run' of story mode.

 

Splitting the queue would just ensure it pops less, so they're not going to do that.

Please re-read the above post. It explains the situation exactly.

16-man Group Finder does not prevent you from running 8-man Operations with your small guild, and therefore in no way dilutes the talent of your guild group. Simply do not use Group Finder and walk into an 8-man instance. You are completely unaffected by the change in terms of the size of the Operation you run and the quality of the players in your group.

If your actual reason for not liking 16-man Group Finder is the fact that you don't get Ultimate commendations unless you use it, then you do not understand the purpose of Group Finder being in the game.

Group Finder does not exist to provide your pre-made guild group with free transportation into the Operation instance and a bonus commendation present at the end. Group Finder is meant to help individual players find a group to be able to run an Operation with. The commendation reward is meant to incentivize the use of Group Finder so that individual players have an increased level of access to group content.

If your 8-man pre-made guild group somehow feels obligated to only run Operations through 16-man Group Finder because you want the Ultimate commendations, and therefore you have to include other players as part of your team, congratulations, you are doing exactly what Group Finder was designed for. You are helping other players experience Operation content and the incentive worked.

/signed

I'm a tank, but bailed on the queue yesterday to join a run forming on fleet. My current guild only gets 8-10 people on at any one time, so we basically have to pug half our op or get virtually no rewards. Speaking of rewards, the disparity is farcical - I got 66 ultimate comms for doing DF last night. I only receive 54 (I think) elite for doing it. If I'd been foolish enough to do 8m I'd have received 16 ultimate. That's not exactly a good balance.

Please Bioware, don't force guilds to go down the mega-guild route to be able to be rewarded. Please add rewards to the 8m, perhaps 8 ultimate comms per boss so that 16m still gets more, but not over 5 times more.

I completely agree that content should be available for everyone, but I know several people who have had bad experiences with pugs and don't like to use group finder for those very reasons. With 8m, dps had a longer queue, but players who weren't fans of pugs could still gear. Now those players have to wait 4 weeks (if only doing ops) to get a chest or off hand. Hardly equitable in my book.

As someone said earlier, a good idea would be to just equalise commendation rewards for 8/16m (although allow 16m to drop more unassembled pieces).

Edit: another quick note. In 8 man I'd be happy to run each operation every week on a couple of tanks - as they were 8m I'd only just go over the weekly cap. Now I'm going to hit the cap in 2 ops and a HM FP, meaning I'm not going to queue a pug DP or S&V run through GF.

Please re-read the above post. It explains the situation exactly.

 

16-man Group Finder does not prevent you from running 8-man Operations with your small guild, and therefore in no way dilutes the talent of your guild group. Simply do not use Group Finder and walk into an 8-man instance. You are completely unaffected by the change in terms of the size of the Operation you run and the quality of the players in your group.

 

If your actual reason for not liking 16-man Group Finder is the fact that you don't get Ultimate commendations unless you use it, then you do not understand the purpose of Group Finder being in the game.

 

Group Finder does not exist to provide your pre-made guild group with free transportation into the Operation instance and a bonus commendation present at the end. Group Finder is meant to help individual players find a group to be able to run an Operation with. The commendation reward is meant to incentivize the use of Group Finder so that individual players have an increased level of access to group content.

 

If your 8-man pre-made guild group somehow feels obligated to only run Operations through 16-man Group Finder because you want the Ultimate commendations, and therefore you have to include other players as part of your team, congratulations, you are doing exactly what Group Finder was designed for. You are helping other players experience Operation content and the incentive worked.

Acuzel and Rhom nailed it on the head. Group Finder exists for those trying to find a group (hence the name) not for premade guild groups. The comms are there to reward those participating in the system so if you want them you'll have to queue up like everyone else. And to address the request for a toggle, it will never happen. The toggle would force two separate queues which would dilute the queue population even further and cause even longer queue times. This is also why you can't queue for specific warzones. This game's population cannot sustain multiple queues within the same game mode.